Selecting a moderator is one of the most consequential decisions in any qualitative project, yet it's often reduced to a question of availability or category experience. In this episode of Key Takeaways, Chuck Murphy and Maggie Bright examine the factors that should actually guide the choice and make the case that the best moderator isn't always the most experienced insider. From language and cultural fit to the tension between discipline and adaptability, they unpack the considerations that can make or break a project, and reveal why the right choice is rarely as obvious as it seems.
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Unknown: Hi everyone, welcome to
Key Takeaways. I'm Chuck Murphy,
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and I'm joined with Maggie
Bright, as usual. And today we
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are going to talk about picking
the right moderator for your
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qualitative project, which
sounds like a really simple
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topic, but is something we end
up debating quite a bit on
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different projects, and so I
thought it'd be interesting to
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talk about some of the
considerations we have. Some of
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them are obvious, and some of
them you may not have thought
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about, so we thought this would
be a good, a good thing to spend
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some time having coffee with.
Good morning, Maggie.
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Good morning. How are you today?
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I'm excellent. This looks like
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it's nice and sunny where you
are. I am on the opposite coast,
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and it's not so sunny.
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The DC, DC is not known for its
weather.
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The DC coast is a little great
today. The coast,
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it's funny. This is our first
podcast in a long time. We took
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a, we took a bit of an extended
break, you know,
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yeah,
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there's a
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lot going on. A couple months
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down, you get a free pass on the
podcast, you gotta bite me, all
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this stuff takes a little while
to kind of get going again. So I
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actually, that's why we're doing
the podcast, right? Because you
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finally got your microphone, so
we were back in business,
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you know. I'm ready to go. I'm
ready to dive back, and love to
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talk about qualitative research.
I feel like if you start in
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psychology, qualitative is kind
of your feels like your first,
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your first grade, your natural
home.
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Yes, I love it. I love it, and I
really think that qualitative
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has come back in a, in a very
in-person qualitative, in a very
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major way, post pandemic, it
took a few years, but we, you
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know, I feel like we do as much
qualitative now as quantitative,
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so making sure we have the right
moderator is key to the process.
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I know, and it does, it's funny,
it's, it is, it is something
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that sounds really simple,
right? And it is sometimes, it
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is, sometimes it's like everyone
agrees, like, oh yeah, this is
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perfect for so and so, but
sometimes it's, it's a little
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tricky, and we were talking
about this the other day for
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something, and we, you know, we
ended up talking about it for
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like a half hour, like pros and
cons of different approaches,
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and so I thought it would be, I
thought it would, you know, be
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good to outline a few like rules
or questions that we sort of ask
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each other at the beginning of
these projects.
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I love it. I also think a lot of
people, not a lot of people, but
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there's a.. I don't know that
everyone understands how
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challenging it is to moderate.
Also, so it's not like you can
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just put anyone in that
position. It has to really be
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the not only a great moderator,
but then the right fit with the
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various aspects of the project,
too. So, think this is a
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fabulous exercise, and one that
we go through often. Like you
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said,
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yeah, there's an old saying in
sports that when, uh, when an
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announcer is doing a really good
job, you never think about them,
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and when they're not doing a
good job, you think about them.
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All you can't help but notice
them, right? Like, if they're
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good at it, you kind of don't
even think about it too much,
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yeah. And then, but if something
goes wrong, or if you know
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where, in my experience, where
this gets most difficult is if a
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client doesn't like a moderator,
you know what I mean?
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Yeah, because you're really
sitting there, I mean, it's a
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very captive audience when
you're watching qualitative, so
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if you will notice that people
pick up on the slightest little
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things, I mean, if they don't
like, you know, how much someone
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gesticulates, or the tone of
their voice, or their
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inflection, and those types of
things. Like, I actually had an
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email the other day from a
client that was kind of like, "I
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don't like the lighting, this is
going all wrong, you know, why
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is this moderator talking so
fast, and it really derails the
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project if it's not the right
fit, and like I said, it on a
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lot of different aspects.
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Yeah, it's funny projects where
it's like, why is this moderator
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talking so slow?
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Moderator, the one talking fast
and the one talking slow was the
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same moderator, so
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I is funny. So I scribbled down
a few notes as I was thinking
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about this last night, and so
you feel free to interject, but
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I came up with seven little
categories of things we asked
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about, like
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it.
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The first thing I thought of is
probably the most basic, but
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obviously we got to talk about
it. Is there any specialized
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knowledge that's required for
this? Like, the first thing I
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thought about is gaming, right?
Because some of these gaming
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projects, like, if you.. there's
just no way for a moderator to
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come up to speed on the depth of
some of these things if you're
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in that world, but medical stuff
is like that, yeah.
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I totally agree. I think you
know, sort of, is it a bb or a
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bc? Because I do think there's
also a unique kind of bb
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expertise that that people need
to have, and then you know, the
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sort of the more nuanced the
topic is, the more nuanced.
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Moderator's knowledge needs to
be gaming, is a great example.
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Medical expertise is a good one.
I also think it's, you know,
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it's helpful if the moderator
has engaged in the category,
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even if we're talking about
food. I mean, if we're doing
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bacon research and the moderator
is a vegetarian, that might not
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be the perfect fit. No, I think
most people can get, you know,
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have enough experience with food
categories that they can talk
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about it, but it's important to
ask a lot of questions about
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what the moderator knows and
what they've done before,
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because the client obviously
knows their category really well
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and can pick up on the fact if
the if the moderator isn't isn't
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knowledgeable about what they're
asking.
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Yeah, it's funny, it's funny
because it's even - I even
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worried about bringing it up
first. I mean, I feel like you
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have to bring it up first,
because it's the most obvious
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thing, but I also think,
although it is very important,
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and there are certain times - I
mean, the B2B stuff is true to
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the medical stuff, is true. I
also think it's one of the areas
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that is most misunderstood by
people. I think many, many
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people in research way
overweight this one, you know, a
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good moderator could, could
mostly do anything, right? I
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think there are exceptions, and
we just mentioned a few of them,
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right, but I, and I think
sometimes you'll see, I mean, we
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can't, we obviously can't name
names here, but there's certain,
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let's call them circles, right,
that like to go back to the same
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people all the time, and they're
sort of insiders, right? You see
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this in politics all the time
too. You have this insider
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that's like, this is our person
that we go to all the time, and
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they, they don't get enough
outside perspective, and they
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don't, they don't give enough
new people a chance, because you
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know one of the things that that
is, we know this in qualitative
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research is the moderators, you
know, certainly the most
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important piece of the
qualitative research project in
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most methods, they can change
the content a little bit, like,
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and we'll talk more about that
in a minute, but, but so, so, if
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you always are putting the same
person out there, as I think it
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could be bad, and you see that
in certain industries where it's
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just like, nope, these are the
three we use, and it's like,
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okay, well, so new people,
because it is, it's very, it's
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much easier than I think a lot
of like less experienced
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researchers realize to come into
a new category and quickly
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figure it out, if you're a good
listener, right, because that's,
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you know, if you're doing, you
know, 60 or 90 ideas, or
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whatever, it shouldn't take you
a couple to start figuring out
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what's moving the needle for
people, and even if you're
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coming in cold,
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you just sort of flip this on
its head, too, you could, you
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could make the argument that,
in, you know, in some cases, an
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unbiased moderator is a great
thing to have, right? I mean,
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they should be unbiased in sort
of the way they ask, but one who
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is less familiar about the
category, if you're really going
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into sort of like, hey, you
know, have the, have the
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consumers like, tell me about
this, tell me, explain it to me,
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because I, you know, I don't
really understand it. There is
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some value in that sort of
approach as well, depending on
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what the topic is,
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questions, right? They, they
won't just assume they'll ask
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the basic questions, sometimes
that people who've been in it
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for a while skip over. Sometimes
that's where you need to be,
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right? It was like, wait a
minute, why is that? Why is
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why'd we do that? Yeah,
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no, I think it's so.. I think
there's.. it's not always that
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you're looking for the person
who's the most experienced in
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that category, but you're
looking for the person who's the
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best fit for the topic that
you're covering, and that could,
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that can mean a lot of different
things. That's why the
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conversations last a long time,
sometimes.
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Exactly, and it's funny. Well,
we'll talk about that a little
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more later, but you, we
actually, that was a nice segue
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to the second thing you wrote
down, which is language and
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cultural considerations,
because, yep, it's got a similar
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dynamic, I think, where it's
like, in some ways, it's like,
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duh, obviously, you know, if the
groups are in Spanish, you do
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Spanish-speaking moderator, but
it also can get real tricky,
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real fast, right? Because,
again, it can depend on, you
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know, the age or ethnicity, or
whatever, of the moderator, it
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actually can change what people
will say to them, right? And I
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think that's the critical point,
though, is that the we want a
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moderator who makes the
participants feel comfortable
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sharing their views very openly
and honestly, and that can mean
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a lot of different things,
depending on who the respondents
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are and what the topic is,
right? If we're talking to
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teenagers, that's something
different than if we're talking
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to 50 year old females, if we're
talking about cereal versus
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we're talking about your medical
history, right? Those are very
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different things, and so it's
like, what's the person who's
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going to make this group of
people feel the most comfortable
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being honest and authentic about
how they feel and about their
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opinions on something, and that
means different things to
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different people. I mean,
there's like you said, there's
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obvious one, if we're doing the
groups of Spanish, we obviously
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need someone who speaks Spanish,
so that's a key piece, but there
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aren't - there actually aren't
as many Hispanic moderators than
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you as you would think, right?
So that actually narrows the
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field quite a bit in terms of
when you're selecting the right
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person for the group, so I think
there's a lot of really
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delicate. It conversations, and
half the time, you know, we'll
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recruit groups in Spanish, and
we might end up - the groups
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might be done in both English
and Spanish, depending on what
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the participants are most
comfortable speaking in. So, you
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kind of never know, you need
someone who's able to adapt, and
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I think that's one of the things
that we were going to talk about
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later on, as well. It's like,
how adaptable is the person if
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the environment changes,
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yeah, and it comes up with with
age and ethnicity a lot too.
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Like, if you're doing teen
groups, is it better to have a
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younger person who's maybe got
less experience doing something
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like this, or to have someone
that's like more experienced,
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but obviously there's an age gap
between them and the
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respondents. It comes up with
like pregnant women, like
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there's there's just, there's a
lot of different cases where
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you're like, "Oh, should I try
to match the culture a little
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bit more here, or should we just
bring in someone? So, it's, and
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it's a very interesting debate
to have,
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and I think there's no one right
answer to that, right? It's more
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of sort of like you're balancing
off all the different elements
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to where you feel most
comfortable and where the client
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feels most comfortable. In the
end,
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it's a very inside baseball
thing, but on big qual projects,
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when there's multiple
moderators, I always love seeing
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how the tone or the answers
change a little bit, depending
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on how consumers are reading the
moderators. It's very
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interesting,
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I think, that also, I mean,
while this is a little bit
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tangential, it also is very
imperative that you set your
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group configurations up
correctly, so that you don't,
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the moderator doesn't also have
to bridge different, you know,
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make that making the moderator's
job easier by at least having a
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group that is cohesive and can
talk and isn't turned off by
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each other, so that the
moderator doesn't also have to
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sort of bridge that barrier as
well, so you know, help help
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your moderator out correctly.
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Make it easy on me, please.
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Right, exactly.
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That we could probably do a
whole half hour podcast on like
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moderator horror stories,
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right? You know, it's so funny.
I was actually thinking about
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that. I'm like, do I get to ask
Chuck a moderator horror story
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at the end of this is
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probably not good for the
category, right? We don't want,
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we don't want everybody listen
to this thick and dick, and most
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four years and years ago
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I was thinking more about
something that happened to you
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while you were moderating that
was a challenge versus throwing
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any of our amazing moderators.
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Oh, I like that.
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Yeah,
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I mean, that would be a whole..
that would be a hilarious blog
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post to try to think about it.
We reminds people we used to
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have the open-end Hall of Fame.
We were, you know, yes, these
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people wrote,
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yes,
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that would.. that would make for
a good blog post. I haven't
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thought about that in a while,
but
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yes.
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All right, so let's get into
some of the more like nuanced
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things, right? So we talked a
little bit about culture, we
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talked about specialized
knowledge. The third thing I
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wrote down, by the way, you feel
free to just say that, come up
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with something that's not in my
list that I know,
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I, your list is fantastic, I
would subtract,
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but when you start getting into
style considerations, I think
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this is really interesting, and
I think that's something that I
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don't know, I don't think a lot
of people in research think
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about it too much, unless you're
kind of on our side of the
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table, but, but there is a lot
of kind of style, may not be the
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right word, but, but there's a
lot of considerations in terms
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of, like, there, you know,
sometimes there's, there's these
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projects get so big, right,
because you have like the brand
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side researchers, you might have
agencies involved, and then you
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have, you know, people from our
side, so finding the right fit.
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I wrote a, I came up with three
on just a quick, you know,
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consensus building versus
challenging, which I think could
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be, could be a big thing for
people. Some people, if you're a
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traditional, like, you know,
social sciences researcher, the
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moderator should be listening,
right? And kind of a more
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passive voice, but if you're a
person from an ad agency trying
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to kind of really throw a lot of
ideas at people quickly. You
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want someone, a moderator with
a, with an active voice that
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could sell an idea and see how
people react to it, and those
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are kind of different skill
sets, right? Like,
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absolutely, yeah,
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yeah. And it could be tricky to
think about sometimes, you know,
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be like, well, this, you know,
this, so anyhow, that's a big
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one, like, how kind of
traditional researcher they are
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versus,
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yeah, and I think that's super
dependent on the type of project
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you're doing to what you're
looking for there, right? If
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we're doing some, some what
would be more traditional
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concept testing, you obviously
want someone who's going to sit
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back and listen and see how
people are, you know reacting to
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the stimuli you've put in front
of them, to me that's more to
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kind of buy the book, but if
you're doing something that's
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like really exploratory, getting
into the creative space, and you
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have to like pull ideas out of
people in a lot of ways, you
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want someone who's going to be a
little bit more say creative in
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their approach and sort of
willing to really challenge
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people to. Or to like dig deeper
and think harder about what
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they're saying, so a lot of
times the same research, the
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same moderator has both of those
skill sets, and what you have to
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do is ask them to bring the
right, you know, tools to that
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particular project, so it could
be that, you know, the moderator
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that you're using just needs
some guidance on which, which
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one of those techniques to
really lean into, because
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they're they're capable of doing
both.
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It's kind of, it's interesting
you said, it's funny, because I
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think this could be a point we
could debate, but I would tend
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to say people are who they are,
and they're not as comfortable,
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like, for example, like, you
know, this comes up with therapy
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live, right? I am naturally like
I have a big personality,
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obviously, and I have a loud
voice. No, it's hard for me to
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be too passive for too long,
right? And these call questions,
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you're traveling together, going
to different cities, you kind of
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like you are who you are at some
point, and the people that are
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more challenging in the, in the
room, I think, tend to be better
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in the back room, or more
researchy in the room tend to be
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a little quieter in the back
room, because they do the same
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thing in the back room, right?
And it's, yeah, there are pros
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and cons to that, right?
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I think you, I would agree with
you that most people probably
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have a dominant, or like a
preferred style, but I think
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that there's that some people
can be malleable and adjust to
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what the topic is, maybe not
long term. I think you know
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everyone sort of has a default
approach to this. I mean, I know
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that one of my challenges in
moderating is that I, I will
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call people out when I feel like
they're contradicting
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themselves, and that may not be
the right approach always, so
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maybe I'm better in the back
room for projects that require
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more of the listening versus the
challenge, you know, I'm more of
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the challenging type, but I do
think that I've seen great
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moderators adapt to those styles
needed.
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I think that's the other thing
that's important to point out,
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is we are coming into, we're
coming at this a little bit in a
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bubble, right? Like, we, we work
on really big projects with
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really big budgets, and so we
tend to be working with kind of
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unicorns in the moderator space.
They have people that can very
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quickly like fit both worlds,
but when you think about like
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watching younger people learn to
moderate, and earlier on the
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careers, and the people at the
lower end of the budget
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spectrum, they haven't, they're
not quite there yet. That's
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a fair point. Yeah,
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we kind of, you know, but
there's.. there is an
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interesting whole therapy story
to this side, too, about how
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that.. like, but anyhow,
that's.. I'm going to skip that.
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The other thing
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is an interesting story, and
then say you're going to skip
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it. I'll let it slide this time,
but next time you're gonna want
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to go too long. We tend to
always go long on these, but the
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other thing that is, you know,
this is a little bit of a third
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rail topic, but I think that's a
very important topic for people
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that are on our side of the
business, which is this kind of
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like I put it in my list as
discipline versus adaptive, but
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the reality is that, you know, I
think a lot of brand side
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researchers, client side
researchers don't, they don't
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understand as much about the
demands on the moderator, maybe,
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as or they don't think about it
as much as we do, and there are
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some clients that you know are
very organized and have their
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ducks in a row real early, and
that makes the moderator's job
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easier, and there are some
clients that are very, they have
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a lot of ideas, they have a lot
of ideas, that's the thing
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that's going, and there's that's
not a bad thing, but it could be
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a real challenge for certain
moderators, because if the guide
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is changing every group and
we're moving sections in and
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out, it requires a lot of, you
know, improv is the wrong word,
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but you know, just requires a
lot of adaption,
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I think, too. There's a, there's
a skill in knowing when to, and
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I think a lot of times this
falls on sort of our shoulders
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in knowing when to push back on
that desire to be adapted, adapt
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to adapt the guide versus to
stay disciplined with the guide,
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right. If we're doing the
concept testing, if we're
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testing a bunch of concepts and
we change the guide and the
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concepts every single group,
that's a real challenge when we
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get to the report piece, right,
because we don't know what's
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what's a result because we've
changed things versus what's a
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result because that's the actual
consumer sentiment, and so I
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think that that that moderators
also, in tandem with who was in
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the, you know, controlling
things in the back room, have to
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be really mindful about, is it
good for the project to be
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disciplined versus is it good
for the project to be more
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adaptable in this situation, and
I think the that that moderators
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have different skills in sort of
doing that piece of the puzzle,
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some moderators are great at
really understanding how their
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changes affect the overall
outcome of the project, while
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some are more focused on, hey,
this is what the client asked
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for, and the goal is to please
the client, and I think both of
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those approaches can be the
right approach in some
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situations, but not in all
situations, and so. Is it's
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important to, you know, to
understand which, which
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moderators are great at feeling
that piece of the puzzle out,
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and which really need you to
guide them through. Hey, don't
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touch this, this has to stay the
same every single time. So, I
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think that's a really important
piece of the puzzle, is kind of,
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you know, once the moderator is
in the focus group room, it is
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really hard for the back room to
control things, and so you have
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to have a lot of trust about
that person sees the same vision
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that you see when you set up the
discussion guide, or when you
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talked about the objective
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that also puts a load on the
analyst, to like, you know, you,
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I could tell you so many times
being in presentations where
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someone will be like, "Hey, what
did that person say to that
392
00:20:38,030 --> 00:20:40,390
question? It's like, "Oh, that
person, that question, that
393
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question was, you know, it's
like, if you're just like it
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creates confusion later on, of
like, wait a minute, why did,
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why did you know, so that that
could be hard, and but, but it
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also, I see why I also see why
people that are really involved,
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like you do have questions that
come up, and you want to explore
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them, and my favorite version of
this was, it was a client who
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had an earpiece that the
moderator had to wear, so the
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client writer during the group,
and which is, you know, if you
401
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think about it, like that's
that's tough, that's hard,
402
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really tough. I've had, I've had
ones who like to text the
403
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moderator during, during the
groups, and I'm like, like, I
404
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would not like that, it
405
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could be, it could be
challenging. Okay, so the fourth
406
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thing I had on my list was how
much creativity is needed for
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the objectives, and I think this
is an important one, especially
408
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if there's agencies involved.
409
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Yeah,
410
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and it's funny because there's
like there's certain people who
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are really, really good at this
and really good at working with
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agencies, and they understand
the way creative people think,
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and I think that's almost like a
different skill set, right? Like
414
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it's a different niche,
415
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I think. So, yeah, I totally
agree, and I think that in some
416
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ways goes back to your
discipline versus adaptive
417
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adaptability, right? Like, how,
how much you know, a lot of
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times when we have these more
creative projects, we'll write a
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guide that has sort of option A,
B, C, D, that you know, choose
420
00:22:04,650 --> 00:22:06,900
your own adventure based on how
the groups are going, and that's
421
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a really unique skill set to
have to be able to pivot mid
422
00:22:10,890 --> 00:22:14,160
group if something's not working
and go in a different direction
423
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with a different exercise, and
to be prepared to do that
424
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without really knowing how the
group's going to go, is, I
425
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think, a really hard skill set
to find, and so finding someone
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who has that is great, but it's
not necessary for every group,
427
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right? Like, you're totally
right, like you don't,
428
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you don't
429
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need to have, you know,
different routes depending on
430
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how the discussion goes for
every group. So I agree with you
431
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that, you know, some moderators
are great at that, some aren't,
432
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and some projects don't require
it, so it doesn't matter.
433
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Understanding where your groups
are going to go is really
434
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important as you think through
that piece of it.
435
00:22:48,100 --> 00:22:50,410
I remember years ago when I was,
when I was first starting out,
436
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or when I was much younger than
I am now, there was this woman
437
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we used to work with, and she,
you know, she would have like 27
438
00:22:56,950 --> 00:22:59,350
bracelets on each arm, she's
looked like Madonna, she had her
439
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,030
hair was flying out, but she
just loved to brainstorm, like
440
00:23:03,150 --> 00:23:06,900
she loved to talk about, like
little pieces of concepts, or
441
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,050
you know, communication pieces,
and it just, but she had all
442
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,360
these ideas, you know what I
mean, like half the ideas would
443
00:23:12,420 --> 00:23:14,580
come from her, you know, which
the agency people loved, like,
444
00:23:14,670 --> 00:23:16,140
oh, that's a great way to put
it, like, you know, I mean, she
445
00:23:16,260 --> 00:23:19,110
just would constantly spend the
whole two hours just kind of,
446
00:23:19,710 --> 00:23:22,610
she loved to kind of get
feedback on concepts and talk
447
00:23:22,670 --> 00:23:25,970
about different little changes
and wordings and colors, and you
448
00:23:25,970 --> 00:23:28,250
know, whatever, and it was, and
some people truly love that, and
449
00:23:28,250 --> 00:23:32,780
it comes out really quickly, and
those people are fantastic.
450
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:34,250
Yeah, not
451
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,110
always great with time
management in the groups, but
452
00:23:36,170 --> 00:23:37,880
fantastic when you need to
ideate, and
453
00:23:39,350 --> 00:23:46,330
yeah, they're definitely not
right. so the other thing I had
454
00:23:46,330 --> 00:23:49,030
on my list is, how much does the
moderator style match up with
455
00:23:49,030 --> 00:23:52,120
the client style, and this is
like a little bit different, I
456
00:23:52,180 --> 00:23:55,960
think, than the projects needs
that we were talking about
457
00:23:56,050 --> 00:24:01,110
earlier, but the same kind of
idea of like some, you know,
458
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,460
clients have a very particular
type of research, typically. You
459
00:24:05,490 --> 00:24:08,550
know, like the two ideas I had
on this were, like, you know,
460
00:24:08,550 --> 00:24:12,060
the deep and emotional kind of
style, like someone, like,
461
00:24:12,150 --> 00:24:17,580
really likes to be very, you
know, Freudian, versus, like, a
462
00:24:17,670 --> 00:24:22,400
more like consulty, decisive,
pragmatic. I, you know, I want a
463
00:24:22,430 --> 00:24:23,480
job at McKinsey type thing.
464
00:24:24,290 --> 00:24:30,740
Yeah, I think, I think, too, the
how the moderator functions in
465
00:24:30,740 --> 00:24:33,020
the back room is an important
piece of this too. There are
466
00:24:33,050 --> 00:24:35,300
some clients that really love
the moderator to come back and
467
00:24:35,330 --> 00:24:38,720
sort of discuss in deep detail
what happened in the group, or
468
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,360
to sort of, you know,
pontificate about a particular
469
00:24:43,540 --> 00:24:46,270
participant in terms of how they
reacted to something, and some
470
00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:48,280
moderators are really great at
that, and some clients really
471
00:24:48,340 --> 00:24:51,160
enjoy it, and other clients
really, you know, see the
472
00:24:51,220 --> 00:24:53,890
moderator as more of like you
have a specific function and
473
00:24:53,890 --> 00:24:56,440
task, and it's in the, you know,
sort of the front of the house,
474
00:24:56,530 --> 00:24:59,560
and the back of the house really
isn't, you know, part of the
475
00:24:59,710 --> 00:25:03,870
job. Description and finding
moderators who fit those pieces
476
00:25:03,930 --> 00:25:06,630
of the puzzle too are really
important, because some
477
00:25:06,690 --> 00:25:08,760
moderators don't really want to
be in the back and others love
478
00:25:08,820 --> 00:25:12,990
to be in the back, and I think
that's an important piece of the
479
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,170
puzzle, and I think that's also
a consideration for who the
480
00:25:16,260 --> 00:25:18,900
project team is too, like
sometimes we need a moderator
481
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,580
who's really vocal in all parts
of the project, and sometimes we
482
00:25:22,670 --> 00:25:25,400
don't, and you know, so that's
not only is it a fit with the
483
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,100
client, but also a fit with the
project and the project team
484
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:32,120
that's working on the on each
one of these objectives as well.
485
00:25:32,900 --> 00:25:37,070
Yeah, yeah, it is. There's so
much, there's so much
486
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,420
interpersonal time on these coil
projects, you know, how to be
487
00:25:40,630 --> 00:25:41,920
really good to know you're
traveling,
488
00:25:42,460 --> 00:25:44,740
which is fantastic in a lot of
ways, right? I feel like that's
489
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,560
in, you know, you learn the
business better, and you learn
490
00:25:47,620 --> 00:25:50,290
all sorts of amazing things
because you do spend so much
491
00:25:50,620 --> 00:25:53,710
time together, which further
highlights this point that,
492
00:25:53,740 --> 00:25:56,440
like, it has to be the right fit
from a personality perspective,
493
00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,890
because you're often traveling
together, you may be spending a
494
00:25:59,980 --> 00:26:04,560
full week together in, you know,
in a small space that is often
495
00:26:04,620 --> 00:26:13,530
dark, so everyone better like
each other. It really is. We
496
00:26:13,770 --> 00:26:15,960
touched on this earlier, but
nothing that comes up here is
497
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,650
kind of like, you know, insider,
outsider, you know, like, is
498
00:26:19,770 --> 00:26:22,880
this a person that they're
there, you know, there are
499
00:26:22,970 --> 00:26:25,790
certain categories that just
have this, like this person's an
500
00:26:25,820 --> 00:26:29,060
insider in our industry, you
know, like automotive,
501
00:26:29,180 --> 00:26:31,220
entertainment, like there's just
like certain categories where
502
00:26:31,220 --> 00:26:35,210
they just go, there's like, and
they're very mistrusting of kind
503
00:26:35,210 --> 00:26:39,650
of outsiders, and there's other,
there's other categories where
504
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:41,860
people don't care, and they like
to try new people, and yeah,
505
00:26:42,310 --> 00:26:44,440
I mean, I think in a lot of
categories where there's a very
506
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,800
specific nomenclature to how
things are talked about, and a
507
00:26:47,830 --> 00:26:50,680
lot of times that's like medical
or automotive, like it, the
508
00:26:51,340 --> 00:26:54,880
client will want the moderator
to understand that nomenclature,
509
00:26:54,970 --> 00:26:57,850
all the acronyms, or you know,
whatever it is that goes along
510
00:26:57,910 --> 00:27:01,080
with that with that category,
and if they don't, that's a dead
511
00:27:01,170 --> 00:27:03,480
giveaway that they're not
familiar with the category, or
512
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:07,140
haven't worked in that category
before. And I will say, and this
513
00:27:07,290 --> 00:27:10,920
is certainly not a, in any way,
a negative, but if you look at
514
00:27:10,980 --> 00:27:16,920
most moderators' bios, or their,
their sort of, you know, when
515
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:18,930
they, when they send out, "Hey,
here's what I've done, most of
516
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,260
them will list pretty much every
category that you can think of
517
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,620
as part of their bio, which is,
you know, again, most of them
518
00:27:24,650 --> 00:27:27,500
have probably touched on some of
those categories at some point
519
00:27:27,500 --> 00:27:29,810
in their career in some way, and
so it's not like their line or
520
00:27:29,810 --> 00:27:33,230
anything like that, but I do
think that it is sort of
521
00:27:33,290 --> 00:27:36,620
imperative that you probe a
little deeper around, like,
522
00:27:36,710 --> 00:27:38,720
okay, well, How much experience
do you really have in this
523
00:27:38,810 --> 00:27:42,700
category, what type of work was
that, and find out if that level
524
00:27:42,730 --> 00:27:46,180
of expertise matches sort of
where your client is, or where
525
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,740
they want to go, because I do
think you know most of the
526
00:27:50,830 --> 00:27:53,200
moderators that we're working
with do work across a lot of
527
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,040
different categories fairly
regularly, so it's not enough,
528
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:58,660
it's not that they've never
touched some of these
529
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,260
categories, but it's their depth
within those and making sure the
530
00:28:01,290 --> 00:28:01,830
depth fits,
531
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:04,710
yeah, it's a funny dynamic,
right? Because it's true, it's
532
00:28:04,770 --> 00:28:07,530
also true of like vendors,
right? Like everyone has a list
533
00:28:07,590 --> 00:28:10,650
of, like, oh, here's like the 75
different companies I've worked
534
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,980
for, but you're also like,
there's like kind of, you know,
535
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,380
who's insiders in certain
industries and who's more
536
00:28:16,770 --> 00:28:18,900
outsiders, and it's just, it's
just kind of the way people get
537
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,560
positioned through relationships
and stuff, it's very common,
538
00:28:22,010 --> 00:28:22,070
yeah,
539
00:28:23,090 --> 00:28:27,050
but it can be an interesting,
you know, actually that segues
540
00:28:28,310 --> 00:28:31,940
segues nicely into our next
little bullet point, which is
541
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,190
the practical things like budget
availability, right, which
542
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,670
sometimes, you know, is a bat is
in the background for all these
543
00:28:37,730 --> 00:28:40,040
things, right, hey, the person
you're most comfortable with is
544
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,080
available for five weeks, or
twice as expensive, or whatever.
545
00:28:44,290 --> 00:28:46,810
You have to, you have to kind of
weigh these. Maybe this is the
546
00:28:46,930 --> 00:28:50,590
time to try someone new, like
you know. Or do you want to wait
547
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,590
six weeks for your person
comfortable with?
548
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,830
I think, too, there's, there's
often, you know, moderators who
549
00:28:56,830 --> 00:28:59,650
are in high demand are often,
particularly in a world where we
550
00:28:59,740 --> 00:29:02,610
can do a lot of things virtually
now are doing multiple projects
551
00:29:02,610 --> 00:29:05,430
simultaneously, and like, are
you okay with that? Are you okay
552
00:29:05,550 --> 00:29:08,670
with sort of like a slightly
wonky schedule, so that you can
553
00:29:08,730 --> 00:29:12,960
get your work done in the
timeframe that you need? You
554
00:29:13,020 --> 00:29:15,720
know, are you okay with the fact
that the moderator is going to
555
00:29:15,810 --> 00:29:18,210
be balancing different topics
and will have to switch back and
556
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,870
forth, and may have their
attention sort of divided at
557
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:25,670
times, and so I think even if
the person might be available,
558
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,370
thinking about sort of their
mental bandwidth as part of this
559
00:29:28,490 --> 00:29:32,030
equation too, and like, where
will they be physically located
560
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,840
while they're doing the virtual
ideas? Are they going to be in
561
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,060
the same country that you're in?
Are they going to be in the same
562
00:29:38,180 --> 00:29:40,690
time zones? Like, oh, is their
internet connection going to be
563
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,180
good if they're somewhere else,
like all of that, like really
564
00:29:43,270 --> 00:29:47,920
does it seems really like silly
to think about, but it makes a
565
00:29:48,010 --> 00:29:50,500
difference because if someone
loses their internet connection
566
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,750
mid group, like that's a big
problem.
567
00:29:53,770 --> 00:29:56,020
Yeah, the virtual thing has
added all these different
568
00:29:56,050 --> 00:29:58,120
scheduling considerations,
right? Yeah, or it was just
569
00:29:58,150 --> 00:30:00,990
like, can you get to Atlanta by
this day? No, it's like, oh,
570
00:30:01,170 --> 00:30:04,320
wait, you know, you could do it,
but how are you doing it? You
571
00:30:04,350 --> 00:30:07,470
know, you're getting up at 3am
like, you know, yeah. So it's,
572
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,440
it's a little, you're right,
that is, it's funny how often
573
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:11,220
the practical things,
574
00:30:12,390 --> 00:30:14,970
yeah, I mean, it's a whole
different set of questions that,
575
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,790
you know, I think we weren't, we
weren't asking all those
576
00:30:17,850 --> 00:30:22,580
questions 10 years ago, like,
because they didn't matter, so
577
00:30:22,700 --> 00:30:26,330
it's, but it is, it is a crazy,
it is there in some ways, it's
578
00:30:26,390 --> 00:30:29,030
great to have the virtual call,
because you can get a lot more
579
00:30:29,450 --> 00:30:32,180
done, and that you know some of
the sort of practical travel
580
00:30:32,210 --> 00:30:35,900
logistics are removed, but it
adds all these other factors
581
00:30:36,230 --> 00:30:36,710
into the mix,
582
00:30:38,150 --> 00:30:43,210
yeah, 100% 100% all right. The
last thing on my list,
583
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:45,550
you made it to the end of the
list.
584
00:30:46,810 --> 00:30:49,900
Yes, it's pretty impressive,
huh? And actually, reasonably on
585
00:30:49,990 --> 00:30:52,570
time, you know, we're like 32
minutes, that's pretty good.
586
00:30:54,670 --> 00:30:56,830
That's the last thing we've
touched on this, but kind of
587
00:30:56,830 --> 00:30:59,110
more softer questions about,
like, does this person fit the
588
00:30:59,260 --> 00:31:02,220
client's expectations and
comfort, and you know, it's,
589
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:04,680
it's funny, like you were
talking earlier about Hispanic
590
00:31:04,710 --> 00:31:06,810
moderators, and I do think we've
always joked about this, but
591
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,480
there's like, there's kind of a
lot of Hispanic moderators that
592
00:31:09,510 --> 00:31:12,030
don't look Hispanic, which
always creates like a funny
593
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,660
dynamic in the room when they
walk in and people assume that
594
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,120
they're not, and then they start
talking in Spanish, people are
595
00:31:18,150 --> 00:31:21,350
like, oh, you like, so, so,
like, that there are people, do
596
00:31:21,500 --> 00:31:26,870
have expectations, and, and you
know, it's funny to sometimes
597
00:31:26,930 --> 00:31:28,700
you just need to talk about
those with the client, like, are
598
00:31:28,790 --> 00:31:32,060
you getting for that, or you
know, you certain you definitely
599
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,580
get, you know, some people are
very focused on things like
600
00:31:34,670 --> 00:31:42,010
degrees or experience or
backgrounds, so all of those
601
00:31:42,190 --> 00:31:43,660
things kind of come up in this
process. The
602
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,050
one I think about a lot is if
we're doing any groups with kids
603
00:31:47,110 --> 00:31:50,410
or younger consumers, and like,
is that person, like, you know,
604
00:31:51,340 --> 00:31:53,860
have they been a parent before?
Have they have they worked with
605
00:31:54,130 --> 00:31:57,460
young.. it's really hard to get
six, six year olds to, you know,
606
00:31:57,580 --> 00:32:00,160
focus on what you're talking
about for 90 minutes. Like, how
607
00:32:00,250 --> 00:32:02,700
are they at actually managing a
room? I think is really
608
00:32:02,820 --> 00:32:05,370
important, and if you have, you
thought through those types of
609
00:32:05,430 --> 00:32:08,190
things, or you know, are they
parents who can empathize with,
610
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:13,020
like, sort of the chaos that's
going on? And I think that's
611
00:32:13,050 --> 00:32:16,680
important. I always, we, you
know, we do a lot of work in,
612
00:32:16,710 --> 00:32:19,290
like, fitness and those types of
things, and it's like, do we
613
00:32:19,380 --> 00:32:23,750
need, you know, is the moderator
fit like in shape, you know,
614
00:32:23,870 --> 00:32:26,150
like can they, can they, you
know, do they have credibility
615
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,090
talking about some of these
things that we're asking about,
616
00:32:29,420 --> 00:32:31,850
and that doesn't mean it has to
be like, you know, an Iron Man
617
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,610
or something like that, but is
there sort of like this, you
618
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,570
know, like are they, do they
make sense with the topic?
619
00:32:39,650 --> 00:32:42,850
Yeah, yeah, and it is, it is
important, because, like, in so
620
00:32:42,940 --> 00:32:45,070
many of these different topical
areas, you know, consumers will,
621
00:32:45,130 --> 00:32:48,580
will say these one-off or not,
you know, they'll, they'll
622
00:32:48,670 --> 00:32:50,920
mention things like you
mentioned acronyms earlier, but
623
00:32:51,010 --> 00:32:54,460
even just, like, references
that, if you're not deep in it,
624
00:32:54,490 --> 00:32:56,980
you might not understand the,
the parent thing is a good one
625
00:32:57,010 --> 00:32:59,410
too, because it's like, if you,
if you haven't had kids, it
626
00:32:59,470 --> 00:33:03,090
sometimes is hard to understand
what parents mean, that's true
627
00:33:03,300 --> 00:33:04,500
in so many different areas.
Yeah,
628
00:33:06,090 --> 00:33:09,630
I think it doesn't mean that,
that you know, it's not a, it's
629
00:33:09,750 --> 00:33:12,330
not a deal breaker, right, but
it's just something to consider,
630
00:33:12,570 --> 00:33:15,060
something to think about as part
of the, you know, all the
631
00:33:15,180 --> 00:33:16,290
different pros and cons that
you're weighing.
632
00:33:16,980 --> 00:33:19,290
Yeah, and I, like I said
earlier, of the top end of this,
633
00:33:19,590 --> 00:33:23,090
I think it's something that
people mostly overweight, right?
634
00:33:23,630 --> 00:33:28,430
A good researcher, a good
moderator is actually like, I
635
00:33:28,490 --> 00:33:31,340
think people don't understand
sometimes that there is. I mean,
636
00:33:31,610 --> 00:33:33,440
I always use therapy references
because, for I started, but
637
00:33:33,470 --> 00:33:35,360
there's there's a process to
therapy that if you understand
638
00:33:35,420 --> 00:33:38,930
the process, it doesn't really
work the way people think it
639
00:33:38,930 --> 00:33:42,220
works, right? I think I've told
you this story before, but, but,
640
00:33:42,250 --> 00:33:45,040
talk about, have I ever told you
that? So, I was, I'm old, so
641
00:33:45,250 --> 00:33:51,640
when I was in grad school, AIDS
was raging, and I took a job at
642
00:33:51,670 --> 00:33:53,620
an AIDS response program. Have I
told you this story before?
643
00:33:53,950 --> 00:33:54,610
No, I don't think so.
644
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:57,610
So, I took a job at this AIDS
response program, which is run
645
00:33:57,700 --> 00:34:01,440
through the, you know, the. this
was in San Diego, the San Diego
646
00:34:02,700 --> 00:34:06,840
LGBTQ center, or whatever, and
they had this funding to, you
647
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,600
know, basically help people who
had were infected with AIDS, and
648
00:34:11,820 --> 00:34:15,780
everyone assumed that I was gay
because I was working at the
649
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:20,360
center, right, and what we were,
what I was focused on was more
650
00:34:20,450 --> 00:34:23,240
like, oh, you've got this
terminal disease, right, and,
651
00:34:23,450 --> 00:34:27,140
but it was an interesting thing,
like, because you had, you had
652
00:34:27,170 --> 00:34:29,030
to kind of, like, it was an
important thing to, hey, just
653
00:34:29,060 --> 00:34:31,880
mention, hey, just so you know,
I'm straight, you know, I'm, you
654
00:34:31,910 --> 00:34:34,550
know, but that would really
throw some people, they would
655
00:34:34,580 --> 00:34:37,250
just be like, you can't do this
if you're straight, and it's
656
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:41,320
like, actually, like, I can, I
totally can, but you know, if
657
00:34:41,950 --> 00:34:43,870
you're not comfortable with
that, right? So, it's like, but
658
00:34:44,380 --> 00:34:47,140
it's an interesting thing that,
and I feel like that happens in
659
00:34:47,140 --> 00:34:50,470
moderation. People are just
like, oh, you can't moderate a
660
00:34:50,500 --> 00:34:52,480
kid's group if you have it with
parents. Actually, you can't.
661
00:34:52,570 --> 00:34:56,860
You do a great job, moderator.
Usually, the best moderators, I
662
00:34:56,950 --> 00:34:58,480
think, just disclose it up
front, they have a quick
663
00:34:58,510 --> 00:35:00,240
conversation with people, say,
'Hey, just, you know.. Like I
664
00:35:00,300 --> 00:35:02,190
don't have kids, some of the
things you say, I might ask
665
00:35:02,220 --> 00:35:03,900
follow-up questions, and
they're, they're actually really
666
00:35:03,990 --> 00:35:07,050
good at setting that up. I think
a lot of times like that, and it
667
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,170
actually does give people the
freedom to then explain it in
668
00:35:10,230 --> 00:35:12,990
more detail, rather than the
monitor just knows and they nod
669
00:35:13,020 --> 00:35:13,770
along, right? So I
670
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,650
totally agree, I feel like it
can be used as an advantage.
671
00:35:17,339 --> 00:35:21,919
Yeah, you know, and it is, it's
funny, because, like, we'll have
672
00:35:21,979 --> 00:35:24,499
this sometimes, we'll have this
conversation, you know, about
673
00:35:24,589 --> 00:35:26,899
incredibly specific little
categories, people will be like,
674
00:35:26,989 --> 00:35:32,179
"Oh, they've never worked with,
you know, my, you know, organic,
675
00:35:32,929 --> 00:35:36,829
you know, whatever baseball
cleats, and you're like,
676
00:35:36,889 --> 00:35:41,289
"Listen, you know how to ask
about this, so it's like, but
677
00:35:41,829 --> 00:35:44,379
people mostly overweight the
experience thing of the first
678
00:35:44,439 --> 00:35:47,139
experience, and they underweight
the kind of research expertise.
679
00:35:47,260 --> 00:35:50,920
Well, I also think, too, like
one of my, one of my things that
680
00:35:51,010 --> 00:35:54,910
I always look for is I want
someone who's curious about the
681
00:35:55,030 --> 00:35:58,420
category, because then I think
that they come into a moderator,
682
00:35:58,810 --> 00:36:01,050
come into the discussion and
sort of be like, oh, tell me
683
00:36:01,050 --> 00:36:04,680
more, explain more, you know, if
they actually are interested in,
684
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,230
you know, whatever the category
is we're talking about, or the
685
00:36:07,380 --> 00:36:10,650
specific product or brand. I
think that's an important piece
686
00:36:10,710 --> 00:36:12,990
of it, and most moderators,
right, they are curious, that's
687
00:36:13,020 --> 00:36:15,420
why they get into the business,
because they, they just want to
688
00:36:15,450 --> 00:36:18,450
learn more about how consumers
make decisions, or what drives
689
00:36:18,540 --> 00:36:21,470
their behaviors, and things like
that. So, I think curiosity is a
690
00:36:21,530 --> 00:36:24,710
big piece of this, and then I do
think that we sort of talked
691
00:36:24,740 --> 00:36:27,440
about some of the softer
questions, or the fit, like I
692
00:36:27,620 --> 00:36:30,380
think a certain level of
enthusiasm is also a really nice
693
00:36:30,590 --> 00:36:36,110
way to bridge any of the gaps
between sort of category usage,
694
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:41,080
or you know, being exactly what
the, you know, the participant
695
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,140
is too, so sort of this idea of
kind of like, you know, I may
696
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,030
not know about this, but I
really want to know about it.
697
00:36:46,030 --> 00:36:48,610
Tell me more about it. I'm
excited about it. I'm interested
698
00:36:48,610 --> 00:36:51,610
in hearing from you. I think
it's as important as it is to
699
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,670
be, you know, if I'm talking to
parents, a parent, because I
700
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,880
think that just shows like an
openness and a willingness to
701
00:36:57,910 --> 00:37:00,840
learn about it. If you don't
already know about it, which is
702
00:37:00,930 --> 00:37:02,790
really what a moderator is
doing, right? It's like sort of
703
00:37:02,850 --> 00:37:07,950
digging deep into sort of the
pieces that you know inform why
704
00:37:08,070 --> 00:37:08,910
someone makes a decision.
705
00:37:11,579 --> 00:37:15,899
Yeah, I think that's 100% true.
All right, I think this is a
706
00:37:15,929 --> 00:37:19,199
great place for us to end. I
think we do a great job in our
707
00:37:19,289 --> 00:37:22,759
first podcast, back her first
post, yeah, baby,
708
00:37:23,510 --> 00:37:25,640
I feel like we're a little
rusty, but by the next one we'll
709
00:37:25,700 --> 00:37:27,680
have it, will be a well-oiled
machine,
710
00:37:28,490 --> 00:37:28,550
yeah,
711
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,310
so many good jokes right there
that I just, I don't think
712
00:37:31,610 --> 00:37:32,120
I could, all
713
00:37:36,230 --> 00:37:38,540
right, well, thank you so much
for talking about this, this was
714
00:37:38,630 --> 00:37:38,900
fun,
715
00:37:39,709 --> 00:37:42,279
yeah, absolutely, can't wait for
the next one.
716
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:43,120
All right. Talk to you later.