In this episode we discuss the fears and thrills around public speaking. How to overcome stage fright, tips for a successful presentation, and why if you want to advance in your career, getting a grasp on public speaking is good for you!
Key Takeaways:
Best practices for delivering a presentation
Individual fears about public speaking
Tips for a smooth delivery
How public speaking is good for your career
How practice can make perfect
Quotes:
“In my mind, there's sort of two parts of this. One has to be mastery of the content, and the better, you know the content, the more comfortable you feel. And the other part is confidence, like sheer confidence. Getting out there and being like, alright, I'm gonna do this.”
- Maggie Bright
“ I think the most important thing is just mastery of the content overall, even beyond the deck that you're presenting. So then you can be flexible as you move through whatever the content is, whether it be a more formal public speaking, or a presentation to a group of clients.”
- Maggie Bright
“I kind of think for most people, if you want to continue progressing, there's no way around this. You have to conquer that. You can't hide from it.”
-Chuck Murphy
Chuck Murphy00:00
Hi, everyone. Thanks for joining us this morning. Today I am joined by Maggie Bright and Sarah Marion and we are going to talk about public speaking a topic that is obviously very important in many people's careers but a little bit stressful for a lot of people. And so, Sarah recently gave a pretty big talk to 1000s of people. And we were chatting about it last week. And it occurred to me as like, you know, public speaking is a great thing to discuss tips and tricks, strategies for pulling it off. And all the little feelings and emotions that come into having to do things like this. So we hope you enjoy your talk. Thanks for joining us. All right. Good morning, Maggie. And Sarah, I'm excited to talk to you guys today.
Maggie Bright00:50
Hello, nice to be here.
Chuck Murphy00:52
I know, we've taken a couple of weeks break from recording, so we're probably going to be a little bit I don't know, not in our tip top talking condition, maybe we'll need to take a few extra breathers catch a breath.
Maggie Bright01:06
I feel like we're always in tip top talking condition, that the content may be terrible, but we know how to talk.
Sarah Marion01:12
Nah, we're gonna be loose and relaxed, it's gonna be great, best thinking.
Chuck Murphy01:17
It's funny because like, this doesn't you know, no one listened to this, this wouldn't have been impacted in any way. But we're used to always being remote. But we spent the last week together, which is kind of fun, like work. It's a, it's kind of a different way to lead into this podcast, we went back into the remote world, which you probably could do a whole podcast episode just on that on like the transition between working in person again, and going back to remote. But I don't think that's what we'll talk about today. But it was fun to hang out with you guys last week.
Maggie Bright01:43
It was different. Being in this office a lot. I was like, oh, I miss these days.
Chuck Murphy01:51
It's really fascinating, right? How different it is, like the cadence of work and everything. Like when you're getting up in the morning going to an office versus following my I have my whole little routine at home. And I was like, Oh, this is all I have to have to relearn how to like get back in the car and go back to work and stuff like a it's different.
Maggie Bright02:10
Did you feel like you've got more or less done? It's not a trick question.
Chuck Murphy02:17
Well, it's funny, I actually do think we could do a whole podcast on this. So it's funny, I don't want to go too deeply into this. But what I noticed is, I get more of the small stuff done in the office because there's like these times like it's easy to ignore stuff. Sometimes like little things at home and be like I'll do that tomorrow. It's easier to put off stuff. But then there's these breaks when you're in the office when you're waiting for you know, everybody to finish their stuff. So you can go to lunch, you got dinner, whatever that was like, Oh, I'll do that now get it done.
Sarah Marion02:48
It was also things that, small logistical things where you need to coordinate with a couple of people so much easier. 10 minutes of slacking versus 30 seconds of can you do this? Yeah, I can do it tomorrow. Okay, cool. Thanks.
Chuck Murphy03:05
Yeah, it is so much, it's so much easier. It's so much easier to talk about stuff. But it is funny is it's also so much easier not to have a commute in the morning. So it's a it's a very, there is a whole podcast worth of stuff there. But let's not go deep too deeply into that. We might save that for a few weeks from now. But what we're going to talk about today is a topic that I always love thinking about talking about because I think it's so interesting. But Sarah and I were talking last week, because something a lot has happened in our lives in the last month. This has been an incredibly busy time period, during which there's been a lot of distractions, a lot of work. Both Sarah and I got COVID I don't think Maggie got COVID?
Maggie Bright03:43
I had it in April. So I was a little before for you guys.
Chuck Murphy03:47
There's been a lot of distractions. But if we were to rewind to four or five weeks ago, Sarah went and presented at a really big conference. And we were talking about that last week. And it got me thinking about how like in everyone's career or at least everyone that's close to consulting, you hit this milestone where where you've got to speak in front of a crowd that is bigger than you're comfortable with. I think that that is like a really fascinating topic. For a couple of reasons, but let's before we dive into those reasons, maybe I'll start with this. So Sarah, why don't you do if you're comfortable with it? Do you want to tell us a little bit about where you spoke and how big the audience was and how that you know, relates to other like is that the largest audience you ever spoke in front of?
Sarah Marion04:36
I think it is for sure. So I spoke at IHRSA which is the International Health Racquet and Sportsclub Association. So they have a big convention and trade show every year and it had been on hold or in smaller versions and so this was the first kind of big one back I think. It was in Miami Beach in June and in speaking to people while I was there, it seems like attendance was not nearly as large as it had been pre COVID, which is, I think, to be expected, but I'd have to go back and look up how many people but at least several 1000 people five to eight, I think they estimated were in attendance. And I gave a mainstage talk. So lots of little breakout rooms, this was in the big, the big ballroom on the main stage, and all of the dividers were gone. So there were just a sea of chairs set up. They were not all full for my talk, but there was nothing else happening. So there they were, it was about as full as the room ever got, I think. And I was giving a short talk about 20 minutes alongside two other speakers. And I went first. So I had slides to present. And I had memorized it so that I could walk around on the stage. And look, you know, really cool and calm and collected was the ideal.
Chuck Murphy06:00
I think you looked rad like you looked very I know you would you look it looks very much like a TED stage. You were very in command and be like you're a phenomenal speaker for those wondering.
Sarah Marion06:12
I try. But thank you. I haven't gotten up the courage to watch myself yet.
Chuck Murphy06:17
And I don't say this with any I don't think I have any bias here. But I've seen a lot of people saying you're definitely in like the top 1% of like, you are a very good presenter. And that's why I think this is a really interesting topic because first of all, that's not easy, right to be good at that. And my guess is I definitely want to put words in your mouth. But I my guess is there was a point where you weren't comfortable doing and you may not even be comfortable doing it now.
Sarah Marion06:42
I don't know I um, so I was a musician in Junior High/High School like a really good one I performed in masterclasses I was the best oboist in my state, which is a small state, but still. And so I had, I would have to prepare for these big I mean, they felt big, these solo performances and recitals in front of both like my peers, but also large audiences. And the feeling is the same, the nerves are the same and how you calm yourself down is the same. I think how you prepare for it is even kind of similar, or at least how I prepare for it. And it's not like I do that kind of speaking all the time. But you commit it to memory and you work hard at it. But you also need to be able to pick it up if you get stopped in a spot, which I felt like I had not, didn't have the time to fully prepare with for this, this talk in that way. But like to prepare for a music performance, you want to know that if you get messed up, you can start over again, you don't have to go all the way back to the beginning. And so what I would do is practice for in practice it in chunks so that you could also pick it up and begin flowing in that way.
Chuck Murphy08:01
I didn't know you were... That's a fascinating analogy that to you your first like your first time, which you think of is like where you were learning this was was music right? They're both performances, right. So that's, that's fascinating analogy.
Sarah Marion08:18
And I think most of public speaking is managing your nerves. And that is what you learn, or that's what I learned from the the music background such as it was. And then I'm an extroverted person I like in my heart, I like to be the center of attention. And so I knew also from at least being a teenager that I didn't mind public speaking that much. I didn't mind getting up in front of my class and giving a presentation. Like that kind of thing, I would get a little nervous for it. But I knew that once I got into the flow, it would be fine. I look out I get the feedback from the audience. And so I've never thought of it as something that I'm afraid of which I think helps. If you if you think you don't like it, you're gonna feel much more afraid of it. But I've always thought that it was something that I was pretty, pretty good at, at least because I didn't get nervous, like I knew other people did.
Chuck Murphy 09:09
Well, I mean, it's funny. I mean, I started this by saying I think all three of us need me you and Maggie are all good at this right? We've had to be like we wouldn't be where we are in our careers now without being good presenters, but I think you're an exceptional presenter like you're very-
Sarah Marion09:24
I'm really flattered. I don't feel that way about myself and thank
Chuck Murphy09:30
You're a phenomenal you should be fine. But I also think the reason I think this is a really interesting topic is you hit on it just a second ago, which is first of all, you know if you're going to be in a career like ours and what we do, you are going to have to learn to do a presentation maybe not at the scale you just did it at, but you're going to have to learn to do this. And it's the anxiety that there's so much anxiety with so many I think it almost everyone, I think there's, I think there's maybe like, you know, if I had to put a number on it, I would say maybe one or two out of 100 people does not feel anxious about this like, and when I say anxious, like incredibly anxious, and I've had as a manager over the course of my career, I've had a number of people that I actually thought would be, I know they would be fine at it and fine is the is the minimum right? They'd be C, C+, but probably B+, except for this they will just keep repeating to you. "I don't do that. I'm not good at this" and the self doubting anxiety is actually the problem. But there's no I kind of think for most people, if you want to continue progressing, there's no way around this. You have to be you have to conquer that right. You can't, you can't hide from it. And it will at some point, it will stop your career, I think and which is why and I think that that goes to in a lot of careers. You know, like, if you're a lawyer, you're gonna have to show up and argue in court at some point, like you get you know what I mean? Like, but yeah. Maggie, how did you - were you anxious about this? At some point in your career?
Maggie Bright11:08
I was just thinking, yes, absolutely. I remember... So I was not a musical prodigy by any means, I forgot every piece I ever played in every piano recital that I ever had to the point of like being frozen on the stage. And I think for me, I didn't really start being and you know, I didn't do any theater or anything like that. So it wasn't until I had a career post college that I ever did any kind of speaking. And I speak really fast all the time. So I would get up there. And even if I had great mastery of the content, half the time I would blow through a presentation and like half the time that was allotted. And so for me, I think it was about gaining just confidence, which was just doing it over and over again. Because there's, in my mind, there's sort of two parts of this right one has to be mastery of the content, and the better, you know, the content, the more comfortable you feel. And the other part is confidence, like sheer confidence getting out there and being like, Alright, I'm gonna do this. And that took me a lot of time to, to get to, you know, the more, the more confident I got, the better I understood the content and vice versa. But I am definitely someone who sort of flies by the seat of my pants when it comes to public speaking. And I think that that is good and bad, right? I don't have as much time to be nervous about it, because I don't spend as much time thinking about it. And it allows me to react very quickly to the environment and those types of things that need to adapt what I'm saying, but it's probably a lot less polished than, you know, a lot of the speakers that that I see and admire. So. But yeah, I don't think I've ever spoken to 8000 people, I think that would be you know, I know that would make me nervous. But right being nervous means you care. So I always take that as a good sign.
Sarah Marion13:03
The woman who came after me as a professional public speaker, and she said that she always gets nervous to. She said everybody does, which I believe.
Chuck Murphy13:13
Yeah. That's what makes this a really interesting discussion to me is that I think people who don't do this have this idea that people that do it, it comes naturally to them, because they look part of part of being good at this is making it seem like you're very comfortable with it, right? Like I think people that do stop and really kind of refuse that I always think about when I was when I was younger, as a manager when I so when I had hired a smaller team, I had managed a lot of people. There was a woman that worked for me, and you both know I'm not going to name any names here. But you may remember some of the stories but she was really good. She was really good. And I really kind of believed in her. And I was like, and she got to a point in her career where it was time I was like, Alright, this is like, you own this, this is your client. Now this is your topic, go do this. And she's like, Man, I don't know how to do presentations. And I'm like, of course you do, like, you can do this, like you've got this. And it became this fight for like six months or a year or so like, I don't like to do this. And I was like, nobody likes to do it really like, but it's, it's, it would be bad for you. If I step in and voice your work like it's, it's, it's it this is a natural, it's like evolution, like, they should see that you're the one with these thoughts and everything. And it became and I was like, I really struggled like as manager trying to figure out how to convince her of that. And I always think it's interesting, but I think that there is this block that people have or like, some people are good at this and it's like no, I mean there of course there may be someone out there that there are people that love it, of course, but but they're pretty rare. Most of the people that do this, especially if they do it for their career or something. They're nervous about it too. And they're there they had to learn to strategies like as Sarah said very well today, to manage that, you know, to manage the nerves. I remember like for me, my career started in in academia, so my first really nervous, like I've got to speak as a professional thing was a defense of a thesis. And I remember at the time I'm old, so this was in the 90s a lot of the grad students would take beta blockers, they're like, if you don't get nervous, you'll do better. And I have this big like, anti drug thing. So I'm like, I'm not going to, like have to take a beta blocker but I but I remember like that, that's an interesting thing to think about that it's like, the beta blocker isn't making you more relaxed. It's, it's stopping the symptoms of nerves, but that in itself stops the cycle from starting, right. So like, you know, since you don't like steal, like so it's, it's fascinating to me. But I do think that if more people realize, like, hey the people that are good at this, like get nervous, or whatever, but you have to push through it, I think I think less people would would stop themselves. And if you do break through that, like if you it's a phenomenal advantage for your career, right? Because this is a little ceiling that stops so many people.
Maggie Bright16:12
I think too that in our career where so much of what we present is data, it is sometimes hard to connect with an audience, regardless of the size when you're talking about numbers. So there's this other piece of it, that's about learning how to make what we do interesting beyond just numbers on a page. And that's what I think Sarah does really well is connects all these disparate sources and weaves it into this great story that's relevant and compelling. And that's hard to do sometimes with our ,not that our content isn't super interesting, but it's very data heavy. And if you're talking to a room of people who are not data, heavy people, then you have to come up with a way to make it interesting. And sometimes I think that's half the nerves, right? It's like, Can I hold everyone's attention long enough to get to the interesting parts of this? Or can I tell it in a way that's relevant enough that people will stay engaged? Because I do think people have a lot of empathy, for struggle during public speaking, right? Obviously, we want to be super polished, but everyone knows how hard it is. So if you if you are shaky at the beginning, or, you know, sweating, or whatever, I think most people are like, Oh, I get it. I've been there. I can relate to that. So it's just kind of getting past that initial terror and into the interesting content. And then I think most people are fine. But it's kind of like jumping off a cliff in the beginning.
Sarah Marion17:39
And that's the like, fixed versus growth mindset, right? The growth mindset says, I can work hard and do something. Whereas fixed says I'm good at this, or I'm not good at this and that chase you down.We're supposed to be teaching our children the growth mindset.
Maggie Bright17:56
Yes. I read a lot of books on that recently. I've it's been applied to math. And so yes, you hear it speaking.
Sarah Marion18:04
But it's that same little mindset switch.
Chuck Murphy18:09
It applies to a lot of things.
Sarah Marion18:12
You were talking about the kind of fly by your seat of your pants versus polished approach. And I think that those are two, I do them both. Also, I like in a while, depending on kind of the size and importance of the presentation or like the audience, I prefer to the more spontaneous approach because I think it leads to better discussion, I want people to act, I want that to be more of a discussion and less of a public speaking event. But for something where I know, like the, like the IHRSA convention, or, or I'm going to be speaking to a big group, and there's not really a chance for questions that I want to be more polished and know exactly what I'm saying, I know that it will fit in the time allotted. And so I will write myself out a script. That is my exact words, but it's in my own language, and then refine it, refine it, refine it, and I started doing that after I... Well, that's not true. I started doing that earlier. But then - so my sister in law she does communications for a big executive at Microsoft. And so she's always having to prep him for these big product unveilings and conventions and all kinds of stuff. And that's how they do it. There is a talk track. And so now I think of it as my talk track, and they're always refining the talk track, but it is exactly what he's gonna say. And then it's the teleprompter. And I was like, well, that's that's how I should do it. This is a person who does this for a living. I should take that approach.
Chuck Murphy19:46
Yeah, yeah. No, it's funny. Well, the I think that's a nice segue, actually, because I was I always like to think about like, little tips and tricks you can use to make this easier in both scenarios, right. There's also It should be brought up like with like the winging it thing can be a confidence thing I've done this so many times that aren't need don't really prepare, or it can be a little bit of a defense like I don't want to. It's avoidance too. So So it's interesting that can play both ways. But it both scenarios. Just depends on the day. But in both in both of those scenarios for something I didn't want to work too hard. I always liked like, simple rules. But I basically just started early in my career, like, I would just make, I would go 123 For each slide, right?
Maggie Bright20:36
I do that too, because you told me to.
Sarah Marion20:40
Maggie told me to!
Chuck Murphy20:44
It's the three points I want to hit. But I would make sure that either in the speaker notes, or if it was a really big deal, I had it memorized. I knew exactly what the three points were even if I got derailed or something or asked me the question, I would go back to like, Oh, also point this and I was always, in my mind, find if time was short skipping two or three to move through just making the main points on it. But I wonder like, Are there anything else you guys do? Like maybe, either Maggie's, we'll start with you, like anything you do that you've found over the career that helps make presentations easier.
Maggie Bright21:21
So like I said, I learned from you. So I also do the three, the three points on a slide, but what I find is that I do it for maybe the first half of the deck. And usually by the time, you know, as I'm prepping and I do I do prep for things, even when I fly by the seat of my pants, that I have a good sense of like, what my key messages and that's really how I preface I'm like, Okay, what are the even bigger than the slide itself? What are the, you know, what are the main themes that I know that I need to get across in this presentation? And what's the timeframe in which I have to get those across. And so whenever I feel like the I get derailed or off my you know, my scripts so to speak, I always can remind myself, okay, here are the things that I definitely have to hit, how can I make sure I get those in. And I think that as long as I have sort of a guiding framework to work with, that allows me then to sort of fly by the seat of my pants, so to speak. But I think the most important thing is just mastery of the content overall, even beyond the deck that you're presenting. So then that you can be flexible as you move through whatever the content is, whether it be a more formal public speaking, or a presentation to a group of, to a group of clients. The other thing that really helps me feel comfortable is doing a lot of background work on the people I'm speaking to. So if I have a better sense of who they are, whether that be you know, an organization like Sarah went to understanding who the membership is, and kind of what concerns that they would have and how the content would relate to them, or if it's a client, you know, really understanding the the roles that are going to be present in the room or, you know, anything that's happening, recent news that may change the way they interact with the data, having sort of that context to present in helps me feel a lot more comfortable, because then I can sort of already anticipate where they're going to have more interest or what questions they're going to be asking. And those types of things. And then for me, I have to do a lot of the time I spend right before the presentation has to be extremely calm, I have to whether it's, you know, deep breathing or something that's completely different from the material itself, or meditation or whatever. I'm a very excitable person, I get really excited to share what I know with people. And so if I don't take a few minutes to slow down, then I tend to race through the content. That's kind of my general that's how I approach it. I don't know Sarah, you talk to us about some of your things. I love that you practice your speech from starting from different points. I never thought about that. That's a great,
Chuck Murphy23:59
I've never heard anyone say it before. That's really interesting.
Sarah Marion24:03
It it's so if you get thrown off in the middle, you don't have to go all the way back because it is a performance and like if if you think about it as a musical piece, you can start at the beginning and go all the way through to the end. But if you get messed up in the middle, like you have to be able to pick it up somewhere in middle.
Maggie Bright24:16
That's why I never made it through a recital. I only practiced the beginning.
Sarah Marion24:21
For me if I'm doing a big presentation like that, where I I wanted to memorize it I needed I knew that I needed to commit committed all to memory and in these specific ways. And I prepared for it the same way that I used to prepare for big auditions, which is I just did it every day one like one time every day for as much in advance as I could and then and that also helps you refine what you're going to say and hit be able to start from different points. And then by the time I got to the day that I was gonna give it i cramped so I did it like four times in a row. And then it was there. Except I did forget something. Because I, I ended early. And I knew that meant I forgot something. But nobody noticed that was fine.
Maggie Bright25:11
Right. And did you ever figure out what you forgot?
Sarah Marion25:13
I did. It came to me like later in the day.
Maggie Bright25:18
Probably wasn't that important?
Sarah Marion25:20
Yeah. Because while I was doing, like the actual experience of the speaking is a blank,
Maggie Bright25:25
Right? I agree with you, I tend to blackout during it, too. So when it's over, I'm like, what happened?
Sarah Marion25:34
Yeah, the adrenaline takes you through. And I also needed, I knew that I needed to be slow enough, because I also speak fast, especially when I get nervous. And so I, in the, the four times in a row, where I was doing it, when I was really practicing was the beginning, getting into it at the cadence that I wanted in a relaxed voice, so that I could set myself up for that. And I feel like the beginning is the part you practice the most just because of the beginning. And if you get interrupted, you don't get to the end. But it's also the most important part, because that's how you find your footing. And go on from there.
Chuck Murphy26:15
It's interesting, you two are alike. In some ways, we're talking about two different things. Right? So because so the performance idea, to 1000s of people is pretty much a one way presentation, right? Whereas, a lot of what speakers do is a smaller group meetings that were actually like a moment of silence and questions are really good for the meeting, right? Like, it's, there are many point like, so there are kind of different strategies here, depending on the type of meeting but in a smaller presentation. It's so critical sometimes to pause and let other voices come into it and turn it into a discussion. Those are oftentimes the the most successful outcomes of those meetings or when everybody started debating, although that sometimes can mean you'd make it 20% of the way through the content you hope to cover. But so there are different strategies, depending on different meeting types, I think two, which is kind of intersting.
Maggie Bright27:11
What are yours? Do you have any tips and tricks?
Sarah Marion27:13
Yeah, what are your tips?
Chuck Murphy27:15
Well, the three thing I do, I really do not like it, and I have an added layer, you guys know this, but I have an added layer of I read lips. So group, group things are very stressful to me, because I can't, if like two people talk at once, or if if someone starts talking from a direction, I don't expect I get my hearing loss becomes a big issue. So I really don't like it. And that's one of the reasons I'm always kind of like, when people are like, Oh, I don't like doing this. I'm like, Well, yeah, neither do. I like it way less than you, I guarantee you. But sometimes you have to do stuff you don't like like and then you have to learn to do it and get by. So I used to when I was younger, I found it really, really stressful. And so I that's one of the reasons I would be like, Okay, what do we want to cover? And then I tried to one of the things, there's a whole layer of this, like how you deal with a hearing loss at a big group. But one way it's easier for me is like if I throw the question to specific people that I know who's gonna answer it, that makes it easier than when people start cross talking a lot. So there's things like that, and but I still, even to this day, I've presented a lot. I mean, compared to most people, I've probably had a lot more presentation experience. And I still don't like it, I still, it's still still really divided, stressful and not fun. And I'll see like, the bigger it is like, the more I might think about it for longer periods of time. And I do think in in what we do, there's always this balance between knowing the data, and then committing to a story like that to where you draw the line, depending on that project of like, is this something where we really want to tightly control the narrative and what we talked about? Or is this something where we want to facilitate a discussion?
Maggie Bright28:57
We talked about sort of mastery of the content and then the competence piece but you bring up a third pillar that's sort of controlling the the room or the environment, which I hadn't really thought about in the beginning which, but which is also very crucial in a successful small environment. And I mean, you have less sort of control in a big in a big public speaking engagement, but it is something that is I would put it up there as like, you know, a third a third confidence content mastery and being able to control the room or the environment. And I don't mean that in sort of, like a strict way but you know, being able to being set up for success and then knowing how to adjust as the environment changes if it does or how to control the cadence things or questions, all those types of things
Sarah Marion29:44
Or when things go awry, like got a slide that causes consternation in the audience. You need to be able to like get them back, get him back on your side.
Maggie Bright29:55
Or you don't have the right adapter to plug into the right things. Now, but it used to be a huge issue, right? Don't you remember, like no one, no one had the right dongle or whatever they called.
Chuck Murphy30:07
You know, I've always found this fascinating. I always did the group dynamics thing, always, I always felt like I had a huge advantage because in psychology you spend so many years practically have to learn to do group therapy, which is much harder, and you have to learn all these different ways to like manage a group. But one thing I always found fascinating, that's just an analogy to this is like, you know, my sister is a comedian. And when comedians first start more experienced comedians or Booker's or producers, they will tell them like until you've been on stage for at least 2000 hours, we won't consider you for these bigger type gigs. And it sounds crazy when you think about that, especially when you think about the fact that comedians start their stage time and seven minute increments when they're younger. They do, it's hard to get seven minutes the station up. So 2000 hours of stage time is incredible. It's a years worth of experience. And the reason they say that is, especially with comedy, it's very easy to lose your way if something goes wrong or something's unexpected, whether you get heckled or something happens in the crowd. That's, that's, you know, the lights come on, or whatever. And you have to have a ton of experience to be able to recover from that it requires like spontaneity and creativity but also experience right to know where to go with it. And I always thought that was a fascinating thing to think about because-
Maggie Bright31:19
Can you imagine? If we had hecklers? Like if we had hecklers in market research presentations, I don't know if I can do it.
Chuck Murphy31:26
With my sister's a young comic, I would go watch her. She's been doing it for a long time now. So she's, she's much more prevelant. But it would literally make me sick to my stomach. Like if people like were mean, or like, it's a it's a brutal, brutal job to try to learn to do. And it's so hard. But it's funny, because we don't have hecklers. But I will say this, I think this happens less now than it used to happen. Or maybe it bothers me less. But we will definitely have people that disagree strongly. Like you can get situations like, I've had people get mad at me over research results, which sounds ridiculous. But there are there are some pretty big politics sometimes that go into this where it's not just politics, but emotions, right? This could, we can't be talking about like a division or where some people might lose their jobs or something if something's not working.
Maggie Bright32:15
Laura and I were just, Laura Hawkins from our office, and I were just talking about a presentation that we had. It's been a few years now, just in, we had something where there was a disagreement over the outcome of the research, which was done correctly, and all of those things, but it was just, you know, an extended conversation about that. And it's funny how differently I was presenting. And it's funny how differently we remember the experience. You know, I already I had forgotten about it. And she was like, Don't you remember, it was horrible! And like, No, I don't, because if I remembered every time that happened, I probably wouldn't get up there again. So maybe, it is a short memory.
Chuck Murphy32:56
It's funny you say that because I was involved. This is years and years ago, I was involved in this very contentious thing. And I kind of forgot about it. And then I was listening to this podcast like a month ago, and one of the main players was the guest, which was very interesting. And basically, he got really mad about something that was actually the correct business decision. And like ended up like leaving the company to huff and then I was like, randomly years later, I heard this this podcast, he basically apologized, like he overreacted. And I was like, I remember that! It was it's really funny, like how things but it is, to some people, it's very personal like and that's that can be hard to navigate.
Maggie Bright33:44
I'm sure I took it very personally in the moment. But it I do think that you as if you're going to continue to get up and present in public speaking, you have to sort of acknowledge that those things happened and move on. Or else you'd never get back up again, right?
Chuck Murphy33:59
You want to learn to navigate it right? Just like the comedy thing, like the rule makes sense. Now now that I know that they see it. And it's something it's a funny thing about comedy that makes me laugh. It's like if you see like a pretty big star in a smaller venue, they're more likely to have something wacky happened in a smaller venue. It's amazing the speed with which they react and how natural it seems like how quickly they can like whether it's a heckler they could put down or like make light of a funny like interruption to the show and still keep people laughing and moving on like it's a tremendous skill that would not come easily you know and I think there are similar things in presentations like you may if you have someone that disagrees like you want to discuss that but you also don't want to derail everything you want to be able to you want to be able to put it back together at the end and in psychology they talk about containment right? Can you contain? You just started and it's it's a hard it's a hard line to walk through. Times when you're new at it, butI do think it's, the critical thing to me is, people can't avoid the hardness of it, they have to lean into it a little bit. They have to, you have to try it. I think it's so good for your career, if you if you're willing to try it. I always noticed about you guys you're willing to lean in and do these, do these presentations and do things that are they're a little bit stressful, and some people will avoid them.
Sarah Marion35:27
Give it a shot.
Maggie Bright35:30
I will say I love presenting one of Sarah's decks because she's normally written her speaker notes already in the, in the deck. And I go through and I have to change them, right, because it doesn't doesn't sound like me. But I'm like, This is amazing. Like, you're, I do think that you do it so well that probably people don't recognize how much work you put into being prepared for it. But you know, sort of like the deck, you can, you can only see what's on the surface and not the work that goes beneath it. But I mean, I do I know how hard you it does come naturally to you. But I know how hard you work to make sure that you're prepared to succeed at it. And I think sometimes it we don't always recognize that because you are so good at it. But I always love your your speaking notes, your track, so to speak, because it's always so well thought out. And when you can tell you take the time to think through how these things will land when you when you present them. And I really appreciate that makes me feel guilty when I give you something to present and it's not written out.
Sarah Marion36:36
All I'm doing is I mean, it's the same work that you're doing, but I write it down. I feel like it doesn't take any more time. And then you can give it to somebody else. If you have to, or something happens, you can't log on. Somebody else can just do your talk.
Maggie Bright36:52
Yeah, it's true. But I also I also think that there are the people that I find that are the most exciting to listen to, they're really good at weaving different pieces of data together and you know, pulling in current events, or, you know, bringing something personal to it as well. And I think you do that to certain kind of this is how this relates to us, or this is how this relates to me. And then you get really relevant. And it's easier to kind of, you know, see yourself in that presentation then. So I do think there's like a personal piece to it too, that it takes a certain amount of vulnerability, right, because you're already up there in front of a group of people that you may or may not know and nervous. And then you also are sharing things about yourself or, you know, oftentimes making fun of yourself or whatever not you've specifically but you know, the speaker in general, and so on top of anxiety and nervousness and having to be confident you're also being vulnerable on top of that. And so you can I can see why it's so hard for so many people, particularly if you're not an extrovert. It's a lot to take on. And so I think one of the things that I've always valued about what we do as a company is that we, we have people start giving presentations pretty early in their career, but in very low risk situations, right. So it's at a training or it's in front of a group of peers, or, you know, it is with a client that they're very familiar with, and content that they know really well. And I think that's how you do sort of like flex that muscle of confidence and ability and those types of things is not being afraid to practice when the when the stakes are really are much lower, so that you're ready when there's a higher stakes. At the time.
Sarah Marion38:38
I agree, I think we do a good job also, because I remember going to meetings, I would get to go to these meetings where you were presenting. And I was like, the wing woman, you know, and I got so I saw how you how you did it, but also I could see your notes, I could see how you prepared for it. And you'd ask me questions beforehand and then maybe I would get to do part of it. And so it was a nice little ladder to climb in terms of skills, I got to see it being done, and then do a little bit of it myself. I think that's harder when we're remote because you don't get to, you know, part of it was I could just see that what you had written on your paper.
Maggie Bright39:17
You couldn't read it because it was illegible, but you can see it. I see 123
Chuck Murphy39:22
That is it's funny that they they're the two big components to how we teach people to do this is one giving them low stress opportunities to present it early in their career, right we start doing that in the first year. But the second one as you get into these bigger presentations is hybrid right? Can you present these three slides and next time you might present 10 slides and I'll do 20 So you kind of leave we if you'd like because once people once they do it a few times they realize like a lot like it like anything where anxiety is the main blocker once you do you realize that the anxiety was way overblown. The actual thing is very rarely as bad as you might imagine it is. And so you get these you With this experience, see if you can get little experiences, you can get a little bit of confidence there and realize, alright, let's do this. I am, we should, we should probably wrap this we've been talking for a while, but I will tell you guys that when I was so I learned I had the first present in academic circles first, which to be honest with you, I found more stressful and a lot of ways. But then when I transitioned over to market research, I worked with this person who was literally just terrible at this absolutely terrible. And it was I remember it would in some ways, I would be like, Well, I'm not going to do worse than that right. It was confidence building because they, they would lose their breath, like, thought it. But like, literally, like, just trouble breathing your know how when people's like are trying to present, they're losing their breath that their voice changes, you know, and it was it was really hard to watch. And I was like, oh, man, it's so I didn't want to do it either. But like, like, when the next opportunity came, I felt like I should take the bullet just be like, maybe I should do this, because this is obviously painful for you, too. So I was like, Wow, I'm not probably gonna do any worse. But there's something about that too. I think about that dynamic and a lot of different things of professional life that it's there's a, you know, this is a whole nother topic. It's like, I'm not even gonna go into that. But I think this is I appreciate you guys delving into this topic a little bit, because I do think it's, I was glad when you brought it up last week, Sarah, because it's like, oh, that's a really interesting thing that we haven't talked about in a long time. It's like how important it is to, to have strategies for these presentations and how unavoidable they are for most people's career, especially if you're going to be a consultant like us.
Maggie Bright41:44
You want to close on an inspirational quote from Winston Chruchill. Okay, so this is, it's actually deep thoughts by Winston Churchill read by Maggie Bright. So it says, "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak. Courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen" so for... there was some other quotes that he made that I'm not sure aged as well about speeches.
Chuck Murphy42:10
When you brought up Winston Churchill, made me think of that movie, this is got to be 20 years now. But remember that movie where the the poor guy was just like shaking before the speeches and like...
Maggie Bright42:20
Yeah that's right. Alfred?
Sarah Marion42:24
The King's Speech.
Chuck Murphy42:28
Or Shakespeare, so they that movie, I just had this visual just now when you said Winston Churchill at that poor speaking scene.
Maggie Bright42:36
Yeah buy he worked through it. A very effective leader.
Chuck Murphy42:40
He gave the speech. Good talks with you guys.
Maggie Bright42:45
Yes!
Chuck Murphy42:46
It was really fun. We'll do more speechifying next week.
Maggie Bright42:52
Excellent.
Sarah Marion42:54
Bye bye.