The call for a new, more conscious capitalism is coming from grassroots movements and from business leaders themselves. Consumers are more willing than ever to pay it forward and buy from responsible brands. In this episode, we discuss consumer attitudes and behaviors on sustainability. Stay tuned for insights!
Key Takeaways:
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Maggie Bright 00:00
Hi, I'm Maggie bright. Welcome to key takeaways. Today, Chuck, Sarah and I are going to talk about where consumers stand on sustainability. And just like Kermit the frog said, it's not that easy being green. Hi, everyone, I'm Maggie bright. And I'm joined by two of my favorite people, Sarah, Marian and Chuck Murphy, here on key takeaways. And today, we are going to take on the very large topic of sustainability, we're going to try to keep it somewhat narrow, which with this group is alwaysbut the I'll give you a quick, the reason why we wanted to talk about sustainability as it's increasingly coming up in the work we do, whether that be as the you know, sort of central focus of the project or within attributes related to attitudes and perceptions around brands or consumption of brands. So it's a topic that is increasingly at the forefront of the work that we're doing. And so we wanted to kind of share some of where we can share some of the work that we've done, but really more talk about kind of where,where consumers stand on sustainability. Or, as Chuck has said, How sustainable is sustainability? So it's very mad. So I thought it would be fun. I we did some research back in 2020. So somewhat, somewhat dated, but still extremely relevant for the Coca Cola Research Council. And it was all about food retailers and sustainability. And I thought I would start us off by asking you guys a couple of questions that were asked to the consumers to see. Like, if you can sort of guess what their answers were. So we'll see how in tune we are with the marketplace. And full disclosure, Sarah has done a ton of work in sustainability. So I did review this. Okay, well, oh,
Sarah Marion 02:11
Well, if I fail this test it will be really sad.
Maggie Bright 02:15
And I think Chuck's coming in blind. So we'll see.
Chuck Murphy 02:18
I've been called I don't do very much research and sustainability. But I do compost. So I have street cred, right.
Maggie Bright 02:23
All right. So now the mind the people who qualified for this survey, it's real Gen pop. It's basically people who go to grocery stores, or any food retailer at any point. So this should be a nice little reflection of kind of adults in the US. What What's that
Chuck Murphy 02:44
People who eat food.
Maggie Bright 02:45
People who eat food, I wish I had buzzers for y'all. So you can. Okay, so the first question we ask them is, should grocery retailers have a purpose other than making money? And I want to know, there were three answer options. So the first was like, No, not really. The second was, it's important that they help their employees and local community. And the third was, they should strive to serve a larger cause or make the world a better place. So I want to know what you guys think the percentage of people that were in that top bucket like striving to make the world a better place?
Chuck Murphy 03:26
Ah, I recognize that question.
Maggie Bright 03:28
And yeah, it's been slightly repurposed from... how I
Chuck Murphy 03:31
I recognize that question. Okay. So Sarah, you probably read through the report, you might you have a good number you probably remember.
Sarah Marion 03:37
So I want to say it's a job to get this specific number. Can I give you a range?
Maggie Bright 03:43
Oh, no specifics. We're all about the specifics.
Sarah Marion 03:45
28%
Maggie Bright 03:46
Okay, Chuck, do you think it's more or less,?
Chuck Murphy 03:49
I'm gonna go a little higher. I'm gonna say 35%.
Maggie Bright 03:52
Oh my goodness, you guys are very optimistic. It is 20% actually, so 20% of the people we talked to felt that there should be some a larger cause beyond beyond just even the local community to like, make the world a better place. And then the second bucket I would love to know what y'all think here. So this is the percentage of people who indicated that is important that a food retailer helps employees and local community.
Sarah Marion 04:17
That one I want to say was much bigger, like 50%.
Maggie Bright 04:23
Chuck more or less? 20 20%
Chuck Murphy 04:24
20, 20% and the top bucket.
Maggie Bright 04:27
Yep.
Chuck Murphy 04:29
Now you got me nervous, because I was so I was so high. I'm gonna I'm gonna say 30.
Maggie Bright 04:34
Oh, it's 60%.
Chuck Murphy 04:36
Wow.
Maggie Bright 04:37
Right. Which is so that puts 80% of people saying basically, that grocery retailers should have a purpose other than making money. And I don't we, for those of you who are not familiar with one of our syndicated studies, we run a study called Path to Purpose. And in that study, 80% of people felt the company should have a purpose beyond making money. So it's actually law lining up beautifully with some of the other work we've done around kind of mission driven brands. All right, this one's a harder question. I will, I will accept multiple answers. But one of the things, one of the other things we asked about were sort of personal priorities. So in your life, what do you think is really important that you're doing in terms of like your personal behavior? And it ranges from anything from, you know, donating to charities to recycling to using solar energy? Like it's all over the board. And it's not just sustainability based? So again, I realized this is a hard question. But can either of you guess sort of like if you had to pick the top three things that that consumers are focused on? And just sort of like activities that they do to make the world better? What some of those would be?
Chuck Murphy 05:52
Wow hard question?
Maggie Bright 05:55
I know, I know, I couldn't think of a good way to ask this one.
Chuck Murphy 05:58
Wow, I thought you was this and open it to the consumers?
Maggie Bright 06:02
No, it was closed end. And the list was about 20. Long.
Chuck Murphy 06:06
Oh, that's too hard. So so you're kind of so the top ones. I mean, recycling would be the one near the top, I would guess.
Maggie Bright 06:12
Recycling was number two number.
Sarah Marion 06:14
Voting
Maggie Bright 06:15
Voting was number one.
Sarah Marion 06:17
I looked at it. Not right now. I didn't look at it right now. I'm mixing it up, though, because I spent a long time staring at how we broke it out by generation because it was very interesting.
Maggie Bright 06:28
That was my next question. All right, so the top the top ones were voting, recycling, limiting food waste, purchasing items made in the US recycling and donating old clothes, advocating for livable wages, using reusable bags, advocating for health care benefits, purchasing food from local farmers and supporting local nonprofits working to end food insecurity. Again, this was through the lens of food retailing, so it does focus a little bit more kind of on like that end of the spectrum. But I thought it was really interesting that you know, voting, voting was at the top, but then it was quickly followed by recycling and food waste items. So Sarah cheated.
Sarah Marion 07:13
I didn't cheat! I reviewed the material.
Chuck Murphy 07:17
Sarah has incredible memory so I just I'm just gonna lodge a formal complaint for the viewers at home that I have no chance this competition.
Maggie Bright 07:28
I will let Sarah answer this one. Do you? Do you remember what sort of separated on a generational perspective? The, you know, from Gen Z to boomers? Like, what changed about the order of those things?
Sarah Marion 07:42
So, for what was interesting to me, was that for Gen Z voting was not even on the list.
Maggie Bright 07:47
Yes. I found that really interesting too.
Sarah Marion 07:49
Just because they're younger, but also it makes sense, I think, to me in other ways, too, given this, like how things have gone in the last several elections.
Maggie Bright 08:04
Everyone in this study was 18 Plus,
Sarah Marion 08:05
So they were okay. So they can all vote. Once you get older than that, so I know that like millennials, Gen X, and Boomers, voting and recycling, we're all up there jockeying for top place. And then the older you are, the more important they rate buying in the USA. Although I will say I love that people think that they buy things made in the USA, because they absolutely do not.
Maggie Bright 08:33
Well, I think that's like, brings us to the core of what I wanted to talk about, right? Was this idea of like, kind of like, where do we where do consumers stand on sustainability? And how much do they really comprehend in terms of being sustainable consumers? Because I think that was the really interesting thing I discovered through this work. And that, you know, I hope we can talk a little bit more about was like, there was this universal understanding that sustainability and recycling and thinking about the environment and being more conscious was a good idea, right? We all want to do those things. It didn't matter, gender, age, political affiliation, region, income, you know, everyone, I think it was seven out of 10 consumers are working to reduce their impact on the environment and are doing things like recycling and those types of things. But when it really got to like, big tactical things that could make a difference. most people couldn't articulate them or didn't really understand what to do. And so, you know, the number one thing that came up over and over again, was yeah, I use reusable bags, like hate plastic, right? And if you think about kind of, you know, that's what grocery stores told us to do, right? They were like plastic bags bad. Bring your own bags in like, we're all gonna save the world together. A lot of our shopping behavior for most people now I know there's like a group of people who were very focused on this and who have definitely, you know, are doing things to reduce environmental impact. But for most of us, that's kind of where it stopped, right? We brought in our reusable bags, but we didn't go any further. And so I think that's where the sort of like the state of sustainability, according to some of the research that we've done, is it's sort of like, Yep, I bring in my reusable bags, and I recycle, you know, curbside recycling. But the big question to me was like, Okay, what's next? And who's gonna, who's gonna lead the charge for what's next? So kind of some some thoughts around that. that could lead you too.
Sarah Marion 10:39
For we've been, we've been really taught to focus on waste. And I think it's very easy to do that. Because it's very tangible, what you throw away, and putting it in the right spot, but we still want to throw it away. So that's why recycling is so great from a, like consumer society point of view, from the point of view of the manufacturers, because you still get to buy all the things. And you did, and you feel like you're dealing with them properly, when you throw them away. But I also think that that's what consumers, that's why they focus on grocery stores in terms of what they do for sustainability, because they're there all the time. It's a high volume purchasing place, and you're getting, you're creating a lot of waste when you're eating. So there's a lot of this like, that's, that's really the only place that most people engage with sustainability at all, is in, like, where do I put my trash. And the sad thing is that they usually do it wrong.
Maggie Bright 11:38
It's not easy. Like, even if you have the best intentions, it's really easy.
Sarah Marion 11:41
It's not it's not I make a big effort to do it, right. And I look ridiculous. We've got, you know, trash hanging around the house dry, we have to wash it with the dishes, my husband hates it. And so it's, um, it's difficult for them to. Because the next step is really large scale behavior changes, it's things like, don't eat meat, stop driving your car, don't buy as much stuff, which are much more difficult steps to take, even though they make a much bigger difference.
Maggie Bright 12:14
Yeah, I think the other thing that really came through as we were thinking about this, this research is despite the fact that there's a universal desire to do these things, it is a very personal journey, right? So you, you have a large spectrum of people engaging in sustainability, all all with even different definitions of what sustainability means, and then different behaviors that fall out of it. So one of the really interesting things was that the, in the context of being like in a retailer, people were looking for, like, there was a sense of guilt, if you didn't, if you didn't do things in a sustainable way. So if you were using too much plastic, or you didn't know where to throw it away, but there was this amazing like, lift if you did something, right, like remember to bring your bags and or so it was sort of like this idea of like, Oh, I'm doing something good for the world. And the role of the retailer in that context becomes help people feel good about the choices they're making, not really drive, big systemic change. And so I found that to be fascinating in the context of this conversation as well. But it also meant that everyone had a different definition of what sustainable success was. And a lot of the sort of conversations that we had were more about this idea of, it's not it's it's a commitment to the community. And that doesn't necessarily always have to be recycling, it could also be a more diverse workforce, or it could be solving food insecurity in your community, or limiting food waste, or having a more, you know, paying livable wages, getting health care. So it turned into this conversation that was so much bigger than just, you know, what we would traditionally think of as sustainability. And almost overwhelming to the point of being like, what can you tell a retailer to do in the context of eating to do all of those things?
Sarah Marion 14:02
Yeah, the the people who are really into sustainability connect all those up together for them, it's all one part people can't make truly sustainable choices until they have the means to be able to think about those, you get the means to be able to think about sustainability by having by having a living wage by being able to go to the doctor when you want then oh, now I can make a choice between whether I want the organic produce or the non organic produce now I can think about where I put my waste or where I live, I can make different types of choices that might allow me to live in a more sustainable way. So they all go together.Overwhelming crushing problem solving all the problems at once.
Chuck Murphy 14:46
I would also argue that some of that I kind of disagree with I think people have their the biggest thing you could do sustainability wise is it comes at the intake portion right comes at the buying less, right which actually, you know, helps. Even if you don't have the income to buy organic, buying less is the number one thing people could do because so much, so much waste comes from over buying. And it's funny that you mentioned Sarah at the beginning, like, like washing the trash, there's a lot that people can do to be sustainable, that's really difficult. It's a pain in the butt. It's small, difficult, it's not complicated. You know what I mean? It's, it's every day difficulty. And you can see like, when you say your husband gets mad, like, it's funny, because my wife is extremely green, like we compost we do that stuff all because of her, she's a better person than I think it's, it's funny how like these, it's everyday little choices that really matter which my mother in law's is very, very, very focused on this and has been for a long, long time. She's way ahead of her time. But it's really what it matters is all at the at the beginning part of the consumption cycle, right, which actually, we see that so much a big part of American culture is overconsumption and over buying. So they say things such as people are like, Oh, it's hard, because a lot of people don't have the money to buy random. It's like no, actually, this, this saves you money. This is a big, it's, this is a win win in so many different ways it is. And it's funny, because it saves you money, it's better for the environment. And also really, when we talk about food, it's much better for your health. Right? Like if you buy, like, if you focus on buying things that are buying less of things, making sure you don't throw out food, or having extra food, but it's a very big part of like American culture that is focused, like if you have guests over, you should have you know, 50% more food than you need to appear abundant right then then that food gets wasted. But that's actually the wrong way to think about it. Right? Like he kind of it should be like just in time manufacturing, like, can it how much? How Little can I serve here, that's good for everybody. And in a lot of ways, right? Because you don't it helps with health to like, you know, the I think these things are all kind of related. But people don't want to make these changes. Like if you thought you talk about plastic bags, that was like forced upon people in the same way the seatbelt laws where people fought it. It's difficult to get people to make these small changes to habits, right, because habits become so ingrained and how you do things if people don't want to do the everyday change to the habit.
Maggie Bright 17:14
How do you get there...oh sorry Sarah
Sarah Marion 17:16
I was gonna say that, that I think Chuck is completely right, that sustainability as thrift has always been there. And somehow it got associated with rich people stuff. Like, oh, you need money to be able to buy these products, and they do cost a little more. But But you're right, it's always been the thriftier way to live. And so if you get into those sustainability world, all they talk about is buying what's seasonal, not stocking your fridge too much only by what you're going to eat that week, plan your meals. Like it's just basic home economics.That is better for you, like at almost every level, but it does take time.
Maggie Bright 17:55
Yeah.
Chuck Murphy 17:56
It's really funny because it took me a long time to see this, like when I first met my mother in law, I think is probably the more the most extreme version of this I've ever, like in terms of someone I interact with a lot and see it on a day to day level. And when I first saw some of her behaviors around this stuff, it actually seemed really odd to me, because I always just raised in a very different way. You know, like, if there was like, if she had a dinner and there were six people, she might have like five pieces of chicken. And then two people would split one or like she was very focused on like, what's the minimum amount of food out here? And I would always be like, well, that's kind of weird, because if you undershoot it, but it's funny like her it, it literally pains her to see any food being thrown away, like really upsets her, like if we have if people don't eat the leftovers, or take them where they want them. And it's funny because that gets you when you have that constant feedback loop. It gets you really thinking at every meal, like Is this too much? Can I get away with less? Can I save half of this bag of whatever and use that for another meal? And what you really start thinking about lately does lower consumption which of course lowers waste, right? I mean, that's and the stats on that I don't have them on the top of my head, but the stats on how much food Americans waster is phenomenal.
Maggie Bright 19:06
I wanna say it's 50%.
Sarah Marion 19:08
And it's outrageous.
Maggie Bright 19:10
Yeah, it's really high.
Sarah Marion 19:12
The count the food that wasted before it even gets to the consumer.
Chuck Murphy 19:15
Yeah, you see it in restaurants too. Like it's just this, this kind of gluttony competition, like who could serve bigger portions that then 80% of people throw away 70% of the food, it's ridiculous, like it just all adds up at every step. And it's not helping anyone. Yeah, it's just you know, it's a lot of it is just an unfortunate side effect of capitalism where people compete on a volume, which is you know, the business their business may be successful that way, but it's not good for the consumer or the country or the world in any way.
Maggie Bright 19:53
I think that brings a brings to the head like an important discussion topic, which is okay, so if we, if in a capitalist society consumption is, you know, if you look at the fragmentation of grocery shelves, or you know, the amount of, like fast fashion, or you know, all of those types of things, right, like, it's a cycle that just keeps feeding upon itself. And so how do you? You know, and this is a question that three of us, if we could answer, you know, you wouldn't be in different jobs, no doubt, but like, how do you interrupt that cycle in a way that is meaningful to both the consumer and the environment, and the manufacturer or retailer, right? Like, you can see how we got into this horrible, you know, loop, because the company or the brand, the retailer needs to continue to make money to employ the people to, you know, buy the things, the people have been trained to buy things, and then, you know, the manufacturer is trying to produce them, as you know, with a profit margin in a way that allows them to keep up with the demand. So it's sort of like how do you how do you throw a wrench in all of that, so that you that you address this bigger issue of, we're consuming too much, which is leading to a lack of sustainability.
Chuck Murphy 21:13
What's funny, Sarah is way more knowledgeable on this topic, but I'm going to talk right now anyways, but um, I know what I think about this is a super old example. But I think about this a lot in because it's funny, like, if you think about sustainability, first of all, it's a big word. But there's just this simple idea of kind of like, a communal mindset, or we live we live with other people we share, we share space with other people. And it's it is a really weird part of American culture that that is somehow a it's somehow associated with a sign of weakness to respect other people. Like it's a weird, it's a weird thing about our culture. And I think about the that this, this is like a 20 year old example. But Maggie, I think you were with me, we saw this presentation about the State of Texas and littering do remember that?
Maggie Bright 21:55
yes! Don't mess with Texas!
Chuck Murphy 21:56
Yeah, I remember that story all the time. Because, like, the previous attempts to reduce littering, we're always like, pleased that we're, you know, basically, to be frank, people associated with like weakness, like, you know, it was almost like a tough thing to do to throw your trash out the window and have this, you know, I don't gaf attitude. And it that, that always that the littering thing always like blows my mind, just how many people do it how, how little effort it takes to not do it, and how unsuccessful areas of society just explain to people why you're in a hole if you do this, and they still do it, but it's like, they there's a lot of people that do it, it's like, it's somehow associated with this toughness rebel, which now they're going even farther, and they're associating with freedom, which just drives me crazy. But a bit a bit of a, that's a bigger issue. But, but I thought this, this, this test text example is really interesting, because they use that they turned it around, they hired Matthew McConaughey when he was young. And they basically came out with a series of ads that, you know, the tough guy, the tough guy thing was like, Don't Mess With Texas. And they tied it into the cut of Texas equity, which it should be right because it's your community, it's your state or whatever, and they were able to I don't remember the stats, but they were able to reduce it that way. So I do, I do think some of the stuff that is, you know, your average person thinks of is like hippieish, you know, needs to be rebranded as just simple respect, I don't know exactly the right way to do it. But so but but a little bit more like this is not some hippie dumb thing, this is a very critical part of, of living in a shared community. I for whatever we, I could W could do an hour podcast to me on responsibility. And I've always fascinated by how difficult it is to get people to do basic responsible things, you know, like how, how unusual it is the people that do it naturally, like, people that go into jobs, like ours are those kinds of personalities, right, like, you know, you're getting a college dorm, and there's like, you know, 10% of the people do like 90% of the cleaning and the picking up of things in the hallways, these basic little things of like, you know, clean up after yourself, which I do think that's essentially where this, it's in the same line of behaviors, things like sustainability like this is you have to look at this and be responsible and be like, this isn't gonna work for very long. But it's funny how people have this resistance to doing even very simple things. You know, don't put them out too much. You know, when you when you go all the way into like composting, you can this could go pretty far. But we're not even at the basic level of like, will someone like you know, just buy a little less or, you know, there's we struggled to get people do these basic things, and I didn't really understand why.
Maggie Bright 24:41
I think at times there's this feeling of and I think that the path to purpose work that Sarah did covers this a little bit but there's this feeling of like hopelessness around like, it doesn't I need there needs to be something bigger to move the needle on this. So the little things that I could do aren't enough. But I also think that kind of a tangent to me, it seems like there's sort of two ways into sustainability. One is what we're talking about sort of like, the responsibility piece of it the you know, understanding that we're, you know, all parts of a bigger picture and that, you know, the, you can't just, you know, throw your trash wherever you want, and expect the environment to survive that. But I also think there's a way in through like, value, like monetary, like searching for, and that's the Thrift mentality that you were talking about Sarah. So like, when I think about a lot of the reasons that I initially started being more mindful of resources was because I was like, Well, I was 20. And my power bill was really high. So I turned the lights off more often, or, you know, I didn't want to spend as much on my water bill or my heating bill. So I started making smarter choices that were like, there was an economic driver to them, that that also was environmental. So it's sort of satisfied two of my core values, right, like, don't spend money I don't have and, you know, leave a smaller footprint on the earth. So I kind of wonder, I think a lot of times when we see, you can think of like a store like Aldi, right where it, I think a lot of the things that they did that ended up being sustainable, probably from a bit, the genesis of them was more about the economics of some of those choices, but they ended up being sustainable. So it would just kind of counter sometimes to our like, consumption mentality and capitalism mentality in the US. So it makes sense that we would struggle more with sort of coming into sustainability through an environment or an economic lens.
Sarah Marion 26:36
So there's like the communitarian.
Maggie Bright 26:38
There's a term for it communitarian.
Sarah Marion 26:41
The mindset, there's health, there's thrift. And I think the other way in is sustainability is self sufficiency, which is how you get some of those freedom folks in the way that people understand self sufficiency is like a whole other conversation and self reliance, but I think that people will tolerate a lot more inconvenience when we give them credit for, but you have to give them a trade off. And so what Aldi does is you have to tolerate some of this inconvenience, but you'll get a deal.
Maggie Bright 27:15
Right?
Sarah Marion 27:18
Yeah, just ask people to tolerate the inconvenience for nothing, because the idea that like my tiny little drop in the bucket, recycling, my bottle is going to make a big difference. It's just not motivating enough to enough people enough at the time.
Maggie Bright 27:35
But I found it really interesting, both in the work we did with Coke, and in the the path to purpose work that that we did that there's there's this reliant, there's this belief that like the government is not going to find the solution to this problem. So corporations have to drive some of the solutions, particularly when it comes to, you know, like food retailing, we're, like you said, Sir, that's where you're making most of your waste, right? So you either need to buy less, or do a better job of eliminating waste from the things that you buy. And so I found that really fascinating. It's like the idea of like, it seems like, either manufacturers or retailers have to come up with the next, the next plastic bag, right, so that, you know, they make us the next elimination of the plastic bag, I should say like so you know, sort of like they have to lead the way in terms of kind of the next big little thing that we do. And I would love your thoughts on that both of you sort of like, who's in charge at this point in sort of getting us to the next small inflection point in terms of changing behavior?
Sarah Marion 28:39
Yeah, I think it's, it's really sad that people think I have heard it too. And I probably agree, but it's sad to think that your government is not going to get on this for you, when that is the entity that really needs to be driving change. And so the turn to corporations is almost like it seems almost desperate on the part of consumers to think that you can influence a corporation more than you can your own government where you are supposed to be like directly, whereas like represented by people. On the other hand, I also think there is an awareness that is, you know, maybe wasn't that present. You know, in the past that, actually, the corporations are contributing a lot to these problems, because one major step that they could take is by having to deal with their products through the whole lifecycle of the product, right? If fast fashion, manufacturers had to take back their clothes when they were done with them. I think that they would operate a little bit differently, because that would add all of the costs that currently they're dumping onto consumers and then on to the rest of the world somehow back into their bottom lines. And it takes the government to make them do that. And Americans are studies have shown this over and over again. We're uncomfortable with regulation, when it's presented to us as new but we don't want to get rid of any of the regulations that we have we like them when you tell us what exactly they are, we want those. But if you want to propose new things, we're not sure about that.
Maggie Bright 30:09
Right?
Sarah Marion 30:10
So there's a dissonance there and what government can and should do, once you put it in place, it's hard to take away because people like it is putting it in place. That's very difficult for us, right now.
Chuck Murphy 30:23
It's a failure of government. Right? It shouldn't shouldn't. We shouldn't be relying on corporations. It's a failure of government. I think, pretty clearly and and I think people recognize it. It's actually really interesting. I did this thing. But I have two really wacky thoughts here. But one is, as Sarah was talking, and she said, communitarian and Thrift, I realized that I did a segmentation on sustainability I had forgotten about until Sarah said those words, but I remember that. And thrift was one of the really effective ways to get people to accept this when you tie it with like, this saves you money. And I totally blanked on that when I was like, Oh, my God, I actually do the segmentation on this. And that's how, how forgetful I have been. But I did this, this, this thing like it too, these were two separate points. But I just think where I helped, I did very little. But I tried to help with this build this recycling center. And it's way more complicated than you realize when you get into it. So I could see why. But I also think it's pathetic that so many cities have basically give up on this because this is a big function of government in some ways, you either have to, you have to have either some sort of fine to reduce waste, or you have to deal with the waste, but you can't just like dump it, I don't think. But anyhow, um, but then recently, that was like 10 years ago. And then recently, we did say that Santa Monica is where I am in California, that's where our company is. Although, for the listeners, the fact that that's not where either Maggie or Sarah, which is a little bit confusing, because Maggie's in DC, and Sarah's in Seattle, but a city of Santa Monica is very progressive, very lefty. And as part of our kids school thing, we had to go spend a day at the recycling center at Santa Monica's recycling center was so different than the one that I had volunteered at, like 10 years ago. And it was really interesting to see, but just really how complicated this is that all of these, they everything has to be segregated by the raw materials used to build and it's like very hard to see, like, you're like, I can't tell the difference between these two types of plastics, like how are these people able to do this, and then they all have to be treated. It's it really is a big mess. That's typical to work out. And you could see how, you know, moderate size cities or counties are just like, Nope, we can't we're not dealing with this. You know what I mean? But I also think that it's a huge failure on their part that they put different bids that make people think they are dealing with it, then they're not that's like, a very corporation did that. That would be very, very concerned about the Dog. Yeah.
Maggie Bright 32:52
I was. So in, in DC, and one of the big, like, sort of PSA type things that's been happening is there's this big push to tell people not to put their recycling into plastic garbage bags, which you're like, Yeah, because the garbage bag isn't recyclable.
Sarah Marion 33:11
They just throw everything. It's aspirational recycling.
Maggie Bright 33:14
I was like, Oh my gosh, it's like it's so fundamental, but we don't have right yet about this. And then the other thing that happened to me I was eating that I was eating a granola bar yesterday, which right like you think like natural in nature, and like, you know, the packaging emotes, all of those things that name emoted all of that stuff. And then I went to, like, see how to throw it away, because I read all my little labels and numbers, and it basically was like, this can be recycled if you take it back to the store. And I was like, Okay, that is the, I mean, I'm like, this is terrible, right? Not only are you like, you know, this is like your whole brand image. And equity is around like nature and goodness and natural, but like you expect me to take this little tiny wrapper, drive it all the way back to the grocery store where I got it, which takes fuel and time and all these other resources that I'm compromised on. And, you know, and I was, I was just like, this is the problem. I want to feel good.
Chuck Murphy 34:15
There could be a situation with like, especially with a bigger chain where you know, all the packaging is of a similar material, and you're going back to the grocery store anyway, so you bring all of it at once. Like you could have a circular solution to that that would be interesting.
Maggie Bright 34:28
Some plastics like that, which I do, like I save them all in a box and then I always forget to take them back. But I think there are some solutions like that, but it's hard to figure out what goes and what can't and what you know, I don't know.
Sarah Marion 34:40
We actually pay for a separate service that takes its plastic film and so all plastic bags, all those wrappers they will take for me extra money to put all the plastic film in a bag to have somebody else take it away. But yes, and there's no regulation on the recycle symbol. So you can put it on any package you want whether or not you can recycle it. So like all those Tetra packs, have it on there. And there are a few cities in the United States that will recycle a Tetra pack. I don't know how you clean it out, but most of them know.
Chuck Murphy 34:40
Yeah.
Maggie Bright 35:19
Yeah, I know. here in DC, you have to take all the labels off all of your recycling. Why would you spend so much time scraping labels off? And so that's my big complaint right now is I'm like, can't you use a different adhesive at least get these off easily?
Sarah Marion 35:41
Wow.
Maggie Bright 35:42
I get so excited when they have like a cardboard wrapper on packaging now, because I'm like, I don't have to peel off the label.
Sarah Marion 35:49
We don't have the infrastructure. We never built it to actually create a real recycling system. Because for so long, we just shipped it all off to China. And they would take it when it was all dirty, which is why everyone could switch to the single bin mixed recycling. Yeah. And now they don't want to make people switch back because they don't think that they'll do it. But I bet they would.
Maggie Bright 36:09
Right. I think they would, too. I think that's another thing that the research shows, right? It's, again, we're I think everyone wants to be there is a lot of aspiration around this topic, right? We all want to see that we're green, but in both Path to Purpose and in this the Coke study, there was a willingness to pay more to sacrifice some convenience, to give more to brands that did a better job of meeting some of these mission driven ideals. So there is a return on investment that is there for the taking. If, you know, if brands manufacturers retailers can kind of step up to the plate and help solve the problem. I think it's just finding because it's so, so different and personal to you know, to people in terms of what they want the solution to be. It's like finding the common ground of solutions that works across all of these different facets.
Chuck Murphy 37:00
There's definitely a lot of there's a huge audience that will pay, right. I mean, there's a lot of people with money that are very, I mean, yeah, we'll
Maggie Bright 37:05
Sarah will pay, she'll pay for a whole nother service.
Sarah Marion 37:07
I do, I do.
Chuck Murphy 37:09
I think there's a lot of like, there's a lot of little cool. I mean, there's a lot of examples of that.
Maggie Bright 37:14
Yeah.
Chuck Murphy 37:15
It still would be better if we had a little bit more of a standardized system on that because I don't I don't know that the you know, but uh, but it is it is interesting. Well, Sarah was saying yesterday that was that Starbucks thing? You're saying? Is that happening that?
Sarah Marion 37:29
Yeah, they're announcing that they're getting rid of disposable cups. And like I said yesterday, I don't know how they're going to do that. Chuck you're the one who said all that needs to be like Disneyland where you pay $15 to get the reusable cup you never use.
Chuck Murphy 37:44
Funny like I say Starbucks they will say they've always been very progressive, but I like I have a coffee cup in the morning that I put coffee and obviously and then if I'm out somewhere like if I want a drink or something if I have a lot of times I'll say Do you mind just putting it in this cup but you know, and it's funny like how some people Starbucks is very willing to do that they're very competent, you know, fine with it. But you just try the the looks you get from some people they think it's so weird. And then they're like, why and I'm like, why just don't want to waste a cup if you're not going if I already it halfway. And they but it's really funny how hard that is for a lot of people. They it's like they it should be an easy change, right? If you're just like a, you know, some little a restaurant or whatever, like let Why can't you just put this water in my cup or in the diet coke.
Sarah Marion 38:30
When people ask me about that, because I do that kind of stuff all the time. I say I just don't want to make a piece of trash every time I want to drink and then we think about it that way don't they don't think about it as I'm making a piece of trash every time I give my kid a pouch. Or every time I eat my disposable yogurt or whatever or every time I get a drink from Starbucks. I just want a drink of water and you're gonna make a piece of trash a zero waste lady said that to me and I thought that's a good line.
Chuck Murphy 38:59
Yeah, yeah, no it is it's it is it's those little changes the front end that could make it's more like if more people just did that like use one less cup or whatever it's it's really not that big of a deal you know like
Maggie Bright 39:14
But I think it'll be interesting to see kind of what what the next wave of sustainable action is from a mass a mass perspective so hopefully we can come back on in a few months when the next thing rolls out or in a few years and someone will solve the problem.
Sarah Marion 39:31
I think batteries are getting their battery that's a good way a lot of fun the electric cars we're gonna get closer on the power on the full.
Chuck Murphy 39:41
JB Straubel is gonna take us there that's a fascinating companies, buddy. I thought that was too techie and niche but I think Sarah you might know what it is. Is that what you were thinking of? Are you thinking of redwood materials JB Straubel or no?
Sarah Marion 39:52
No.
Chuck Murphy 39:52
Oh, I thought this for your resume. It's It's fascinating actually, the electric card the the battery thing is fascinating because yeah, we obviously have to figure that out. out. And there's this guy, one of the cofounders of Tesla. Everybody knows Elon Musk. But there's another guy named JB Straubel. It was there at the beginning that he left Tesla. And his whole thing is like, how, how are we going to recycle these batteries, and it's fascinating. They're there, they've, he's gotten so good. He's a very, very smart guy. They've gotten so good at it, that they can now sell these recycled batteries back to these different manufacturers at a lower cost of new, right? Which that's the ultimate win, right? You're not paying a price to do good for the environment, you are paying less to do good for the environment, which is great, like so it's, they've got they're really developing this circular thing. It's really interesting company. It's called Redwood materials, if you're bored and want to check it out,
Maggie Bright 40:42
So that I can stop carrying around the bag of batteries that I need to recycle.
Sarah Marion 40:46
My service takes those.
Maggie Bright 40:48
I literally have bags of random things that I want to recycle but I haven't figured out like what do I do with my old jeans like I know there's a place for them I have old tennis shoes that I need to go recycle
Sarah Marion 40:58
tennis shoes I don't know what to do with those maybe come back to
Maggie Bright 41:01
The running store because they recycle them and turn them into tracks or something but like...
Chuck Murphy 41:06
It's it's also to like is this funny? I talked about this to my to my wife all the time because I'm a big like you find yourself at your local shelter. These things are real they aren't if you give them a second life with someone that is better than really like recycling steps sometimes it's like you this can be repurposed even if it's got a hole in it or whatever, there are shelters all over the place that anything clothing related they will find a second life for.
Maggie Bright 41:34
I have that box too. But then I have boxes of things that aren't like
Chuck Murphy 41:38
You're embarrassed to donate. You're like this is there's no way any way to get an extra mile out of them shoes.
Maggie Bright 41:43
Yep, yep. Yeah. Like this one literally has a hole in it. And I find it offensive to give it to someone. But like it's crazy. I mean, I literally like my garage is like this different sections of like these things I can give away these things need to find, you know...
Sarah Marion 41:59
Yeah, you become a trash hoarder. That's
Maggie Bright 42:01
Totally
Sarah Marion 42:03
My all my in laws. I'm obsessed with trash, but I just thought to put it in the right spot. I think on the consumer front, I think one of the things that needs to happen, this isn't a I think that retailers could be part of the solution. It's the city that has to do it, though, is food waste industrial composting. The city has to do that. But once the city does it, people will do it.
Maggie Bright 42:27
Yeah.
Sarah Marion 42:29
And the companies can that can be it ties into their mission of eliminating food waste.
Maggie Bright 42:37
It's a place where consumers expect the retailer to take responsibility to sort of like whether it be donating food that's that's close to expiration, so that it can be used immediately or limiting waste in general, or composting, those types of things that is very much within particularly for food retailers, like that's in the wheelhouse, according to consumers, right? Like you shouldn't be doing that. That's yeah,
Sarah Marion 43:04
It's way better. Like it's way more impactful in terms of climate change than not bringing your plastic bags. Yeah. Yep. Because you're not putting the food into the landfill or released the methane.
Maggie Bright 43:15
Right. Any any last thoughts on saving the world?
Chuck Murphy 43:21
Do it.
Sarah Marion 43:23
We have to
Chuck Murphy 43:25
Arnold says do it.
Maggie Bright 43:26
I love it. I love it. Well, thank you all very much for joining me and chatting today. And yeah, always open to suggestions from our listeners if they have figured out how to solve this problem too, because it's a work in progress. Thanks, everyone.